Reinvestment needed to take Quakers forward (From The Northern Echo)

No league, no manager, a failure to pay people who helped and trusted the club (ie creditors) false promises (eg we'll be back in Darlo next season, we will build a stadium with the rugby club) and a complete set of bozos who do nothing but contradict each other time and time again. Craig Liddle hasn't hung around and that's no surprise, various members of various different groups are resigning as if there is no tomorrow and these people want YOUR money. How can they calculate what they need until they know what League they are in ?, how can they agree to pay rent to Shildon when they have no money ?, how can they promise money for ground improvements to attain the required standard, when they don't even know what that standard is and they have NO MONEY. If you are a sandwich short of a picnic go ahead donate your money, but if you live in the real world you would be better investing in your future/family/busine
ss than in this futile gamble, because that is what it is.

Wrong from the first word to the last but don't let that stop you, Poolie.

Quakerz wrote:
Wrong from the first word to the last but don't let that stop you, Poolie.

I ain't no Poolie and I respect your opinion, but if you could clarify one or two points, i.e, where is the money coming from, why do these people come out with these statements etc, why should people blindly donate cash to individuals/groups that seem to have no coherent plans/structure/obje
ctives that are muddled to say the least...............
.that, to me, would be a more constructive answer than just implying that someone is wrong because they don't share your opinion/trust in what's going on.

That's a bit better, far less accusations and more questions, but still well, well wrong.

All you do is kick the club, you can't be a supporter

Try again...

That's a bit better, far less accusations and more questions, but still well, well wrong.

All you do is kick the club, you can't be a supporter

Try again...

Turning into a confused scam, investment implies a return. This is nothing more than a donation to feed someones personal ambition to run a club at the expense of the fans.
The CIC is limited to 15% so how is that a controlling stake???

Whats the name of the bank account, is it legal to solicit like this??

morgan1 wrote:
Turning into a confused scam, investment implies a return. This is nothing more than a donation to feed someones personal ambition to run a club at the expense of the fans. The CIC is limited to 15% so how is that a controlling stake???

Considering people who invest can have a say in who actually runs the club, I cant see how this is fueling someones ambition to run the club!! Anyone who takes the attitude that they are in charge and sod everyone else will soon get the boot.

Doonhamer is spot on.Too much confusion.One body is needed and nothing can be done until it is known whether Darlington will be allowed to play next year, as well as which League they will be in, should all go well.

And to be honest, if it bothers you that much that you wont get a return then dont bother investing and keep your opinions to yourself. Let those who do want to invest be able to read articles such as this without people like you slagging off anything that is being done to keep the club alive.

morgan1 wrote:
Turning into a confused scam, investment implies a return. This is nothing more than a donation to feed someones personal ambition to run a club at the expense of the fans.
The CIC is limited to 15% so how is that a controlling stake???

The CIC isn't limited to 15%. Individual shareholders are, but the CIC isn't. It is only limited by how much it can raise.

How is it somebody's personal ambition? There will be elections every year to elect new directors.

It all sounds odd to me, we have buydarlo.org, savedarlo.org, 1883cic.org, darlofc.co.uk, we have artilces saying pledged money should be re-invested.
Money previously invested was for a different club direction, there was no CIC. In previous NEcho articles the CIC was limited to 15% now you say its unlimited.
Why cant we have one coherent position, one website for Darlington FC 1883 if that is now the club name, one official site, one offical pitch, one cordinated strategy, one finance pitch though reputable means as oppossed to un-named bank accounts and differnet organsisations email address.
If you all stay fragmented then there is no hope, all the organisations should be on the board and consolidate the positioninto one coherent way forward.
If you dont sort it out you will go nowhere.

morgan1 wrote:
It all sounds odd to me, we have buydarlo.org, savedarlo.org, 1883cic.org, darlofc.co.uk, we have artilces saying pledged money should be re-invested.
Money previously invested was for a different club direction, there was no CIC. In previous NEcho articles the CIC was limited to 15% now you say its unlimited.
Why cant we have one coherent position, one website for Darlington FC 1883 if that is now the club name, one official site, one offical pitch, one cordinated strategy, one finance pitch though reputable means as oppossed to un-named bank accounts and differnet organsisations email address.
If you all stay fragmented then there is no hope, all the organisations should be on the board and consolidate the positioninto one coherent way forward.
If you dont sort it out you will go nowhere.

Well said Morgan 1, if only people would take notice of what you suggest. Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians, the outcome will be everyone agreeing to disagree and that is a recipe for disaster.

You can either become a member of the CIC, or invest through a supporters group if you want. It's explained on the savedarlo.org website. It's not as simple as the previous model, but this way opens new opportunities.

If anyone has questions 1883 have been quick to answer them on the uncovered messageboard. I'd encourage anybody who is unclear to ask, as then we can get on with rebuilding our football club.

Here we go again. The cretins are out in force.

Craig Liddle hasn't hung around and that's no surprise???

He said he was always leaving at the end of the season for f*** sake, do you ever get anything right?

No league, no manager, a failure to pay people who helped and trusted the club (ie creditors) false promises

Ans: Again, couldn't be more wrong. League will be decided on Friday by the FA. Manager will then be put in place. Failure to pay people? Hmm who's fault was that again, a certain Mr Singh, how many times have I been over this with you yet you still don't get a simple concept!!!!

various members of various different groups are resigning as if there is no tomorrow and these people want YOUR money.

Making things up again as usual Doonhamer. The only member I know of is who has resigned is Tony Waters and that's purely down to the fact he has a full time job that meant he couldn't give the time that was needed to 1883.

How can they calculate what they need until they know what League they are in?, how can they agree to pay rent to Shildon when they have no money?, how can they promise money for ground improvements to attain the required standard, when they don't even know what that standard is and they have NO MONEY.

Because that money will come in from investment won't it. Your just picking things apart to be awkward and a troll. Have you got nothing better to do?

morgan1 wrote:
Turning into a confused scam, investment implies a return. This is nothing more than a donation to feed someones personal ambition to run a club at the expense of the fans.
The CIC is limited to 15% so how is that a controlling stake???

Oh my, confused scam? This is honestly getting laughable. Investment doesn't imply a return at all. You are investing in the future of YOUR club, to help it to survive in the future. We are now the owners, the fans, we all play a part, not a sole businessman.
Feed someone's personal ambition? And who would that be exactly?
Given a new board will be elected each summer made up of fans like me and (well no not you as you aren't a fan)

morgan1 wrote:
It all sounds odd to me, we have buydarlo.org, savedarlo.org, 1883cic.org, darlofc.co.uk, we have artilces saying pledged money should be re-invested.
Money previously invested was for a different club direction, there was no CIC. In previous NEcho articles the CIC was limited to 15% now you say its unlimited.
Why cant we have one coherent position, one website for Darlington FC 1883 if that is now the club name, one official site, one offical pitch, one cordinated strategy, one finance pitch though reputable means as oppossed to un-named bank accounts and differnet organsisations email address.
If you all stay fragmented then there is no hope, all the organisations should be on the board and consolidate the positioninto one coherent way forward.
If you dont sort it out you will go nowhere.

What exactly sounds odd? You mean you don't understand it?

BuyDarlo and Save Darlo are the same website you utter simpleton. 1883CIC.org is the website giving you information about the Community Investment Company.
Darlofc.co.uk is the fans messageboard, nothing odd about that at all. Have you even looked on these websites to see what they're about? Or are you too simple?
Money previously was invested for a different direction, correct yes it was. But what do you do when plans change in life? It means you can't take money on a pitch that won't happen. That means business plans change, that means they have to give the money back and then they give fans the chance to invest in the new pitch.

One coherent position? Yet then you say one website for this, one for that? Contradiction somewhat? In your opening line you mention 4 websites and say its odd, but then you offer 6 websites and feel that would be ok? You really don't have a clue do you.
The website for 1883 (the official pitch as you mention it) is buydarlo.org, the website giving information on the CIC (ie co-ordinated strategy as you mention it) is 1883cic.org. The official Darlington Football Club website is still the same. The fans messageboard is still the same.

How do you propose we finance a football club without bank accounts then clever dick?
All fragmented, hmm? No fragmentation here young chap, everyone pulling together is what I see, the Trust are now on board, Supporters Club as strong as ever, all Uncovered's funding going into the CIC, 1883 now have the way forward for the club. This is coherent for me.

Here's a question for you. Do you think before you post, or do you intentionally write a load of un-informed drivel?

Quakersam,What a prat you are. I have more money than I know what to do with, but the last thing I will be doing is investing in this mess.

morgan1 wrote:
Quakersam,What a prat you are. I have more money than I know what to do with, but the last thing I will be doing is investing in this mess.

Dont then! I'd rather that people who try and find fault with everything steer well clear. While you are at it, pack in commenting on the situation if you have no intention of putting any money into the future of the club.

Hmmm, Quakersam, not like you to descend to slagging people off, your replys are normally more constructive........
....websites and the number of them are not the issue, the future of DFC is. However the funding the club will need is massive if a club is to be sustained at a reasonably high standard of football. The 1,500 or so "hardcore" supporters will not be able to sustain this alone. 50% of them are teenagers or young people with mortgages, most, not all, won't have the means. Therefore everyone else needs to be enticed on board, agreed. Now here's a simple question, can anyone give a simple answer without innuendo, sarcasam or mumbo-jumbo..... How much money does the club need to sustain a season at Evostik League level, including rent to Shildon, players wages, travel costs, referees fees, monies for fines incurred etc, etc and an amount for a season at Northern League level. Then when two hopefully different amounts are given perhaps an explanation can be given for the amount that DP of 1883 came out with earlier this week ?. I personally don't think that the majority of fans have a clue as to how much it will cost to sustain a club at Evostik level. To keep appealing for donations/pledges is all very well, but if someone comes out with an amount that the club already has in a bank account, how much is needed to operate for just one season, then even the most diehard blinkered fan who can't understand the financial side, may take a step back before they post comments which are also way off beam, but like Morgan 1, not because he is NOT A FAN as you imply, but just because they want plain simple clarification of facts which as yet, ARE NOT available on any of the current websites.

morgan1
your analysis of Quackersam,is spot on.He and others of his ilk, are abusive,offensive and insulting.
Earlier exchanges with this fool convinced me to take back my investments,and not consider any further interest in the football club in the future.Their attitude is,if you dare to ask questions that we dont like,then you can get lost.I have,and am taking my money with me.

Yes, I think you are right, my conclusion is now the same not to re-invest, if these are the types involved in the club.

doonhamer wrote:
Hmmm, Quakersam, not like you to descend to slagging people off, your replys are normally more constructive........

....websites and the number of them are not the issue, the future of DFC is. However the funding the club will need is massive if a club is to be sustained at a reasonably high standard of football. The 1,500 or so "hardcore" supporters will not be able to sustain this alone. 50% of them are teenagers or young people with mortgages, most, not all, won't have the means. Therefore everyone else needs to be enticed on board, agreed. Now here's a simple question, can anyone give a simple answer without innuendo, sarcasam or mumbo-jumbo..... How much money does the club need to sustain a season at Evostik League level, including rent to Shildon, players wages, travel costs, referees fees, monies for fines incurred etc, etc and an amount for a season at Northern League level. Then when two hopefully different amounts are given perhaps an explanation can be given for the amount that DP of 1883 came out with earlier this week ?. I personally don't think that the majority of fans have a clue as to how much it will cost to sustain a club at Evostik level. To keep appealing for donations/pledges is all very well, but if someone comes out with an amount that the club already has in a bank account, how much is needed to operate for just one season, then even the most diehard blinkered fan who can't understand the financial side, may take a step back before they post comments which are also way off beam, but like Morgan 1, not because he is NOT A FAN as you imply, but just because they want plain simple clarification of facts which as yet, ARE NOT available on any of the current websites.

See comments like this I will respond more constructively too because they are reasoned opinions on the situation rather than someone making something up as they go along (no prizes for guessing).

As you will understand, the lower down the football pyramid you go, the less money you will need to complete a season (i.e players wages / managers wage / travel costs to away games.
For example look at the EvoStik 1, you have clubs as far away as AFC Fylde on the west coast, with the majority being around Manchester and Lancashire.
Look at the Northern League, the travel costs would be a lot lower to places like Bedlington, Guisborough etc etc, you get the picture.
Don't forget the club will be operating on a part-time basis, therefore players and managers will be on part-time contracts, this is pretty much a given below the Blue Square North to revert to part-time status.

Funding won't be an easy task, I admit, and I don't have the figures as to what it takes to run for a season in the EvoStik or the Northern League, though I'm sure it would be possible to ask one of the NL clubs for an estimate. The business plans were laid out at the recent 1883 meeting at Blackwell Grange, although I didn't look myself, believe me I wouldn't understand them, I'm no accountant / financier.

However, looking at last seasons figures for the attendances in the different leagues.
EvoStik 1 had an avg of 157 people turning up to each game
Northern League 1 had an avg of 166 people turning up to each game, the NL is lower in the pyramid yet had a higher avg gate.

Now, if you think about how many fans are going to turn up to Darlo games, albeit at Shildon, being on the safe side let's say an average of 600/700 for the NL? 800/900 for the Evo1.
4 times as many as the Northern League on an average day.
8 times as many as the Evo1 on an average day.

Having bigger crowds will help the club hugely in the money it will bring in through season tickets / gate receipts / money from fa cup games / trophy or vase games depending on the level.

Obviously we have to start the season with an injection of capital. This can only come from us, the fans. Given we had 265k invested from fans through CrowdCube, I'm sure quite a lot of them would be willing to re-invest into the CIC, knowing they own part of the club, will be making some decisions, get a membership certificate, will be entitled to benefits (announced soon) etc.

It costs £100 to become a member of the CIC, it's not a huge amount but by no means is it small either. Again, most people who invested through CrowdCube I'm sure will be willing to re-invest that into the CIC, this will give the club its working capital for the summer to sign players and a manager.

Sustainability from the season will basically be to spend less than you bring in, given that Northern League clubs manage to fund themselves through gate receipts alone and a hard working committee, even the most basic maths can tell you that 4 times the average crowd, your going to make a lot more than the average team, which should see you sustainable.

The board will probably have the figures to what will keep the club sustainable for a season at whatever level. I don't know what they are and I won't pretend to have a guess because like you said, fans don't know the details of the finances.
All we can do is support the club by investing, buying tickets/shirts and supporting the club on a matchday. Let the people in charge take care of the business side of things.
They can only do their bit, if we do ours.

Comprende?

morgan1 wrote:
Yes, I think you are right, my conclusion is now the same not to re-invest, if these are the types involved in the club.

I'm a fan, give it a rest. I'm in no way connected with the club. I'm not abusive or insulting either. I'm telling you how it is. I can only answer questions like the one doonhamer has given above, reasoned with good points which I can then try to explain.

People putting points across such as "this is a scam", "one person's ambition", "false promises" are deliberately trying to cause fractions between the community and its club. This is not on and I will put you right whether you like it or not.
Don't go spreading unsubstantiated drivel and I will respond to you like an adult.
And yes, ask questions as you like but you won't be getting answers from the board members off here.
I'll say it again, if you want to ask questions why not head over to www.darlofc.co.uk and go to the ask1883 forum? They have answered 4 pages worth of questions and will respond to anyone with a question...
You guys have been on these forums for long enough now for that to become an option but I've not once seen you engage on there? Why not?

I hope nobody minds me commenting on here, I am a York City fan, coming in peace.
As many of you know we've had a very successful week, however on our way home on sunday night, strangely you may think, the first thing we said when planning for 2012/13 was that we'd like to make a trip up to Darlo.
whatever ground or league you are playing in, we would like to join you at some stage and show our continued solidarity.
there's a much bigger picture sometimes in football than just following your own team - good luck with everything and hopefully we'll join you in the new campaign.

I'd like to see some serious plans for a future home ground. The rugby project doesn't seem promissing. Why don't anyone take the responsibility to bring the club back to Feethams?!! Where are the real football fans? And why don't the council do anything?!!

Quackersam,yes you are abusive,and you are insulting,and you have been instrumental in deterring people like myself and others from investing in darlo,by your unpleasant responses,unsolicite
d I might and,to legitimate concerns that we have posted.You have lost the Football Club considerable investments which they will not now receive because of your unwanted interventions.
Are you feeling proud of yourself?Actually,I dont really care what you are feeling.This is my last word on Darlo.You have cost the club big time,bet they're glad to have you.(NOT)

Thanks for the response Quakersam, logic and commonsense in the article. I trust you are right in your hoped for crowd figures, that would be a bonus. Experience tells me that main problems for a part time club come via players wages. If in a higher league (Evostik) we need better quality players, they in turn want more money because giving up Saturday nights (which Northern League players don't miss for obvious reasons) for travelling has to pay better than local football. Blyth Spartans (average crowd last year 720) Durham City, Bishops and the Moors have all suffered from this in the last decade or so.

Your not seriously suggesting that you are put off by somebody making comments on an internet forum are you? Thick skinned enough?
I admit I've said things that were probably out of turn but I've tried to bite my tongue and respond. You wouldn't have invested anyway as you say you had too many doubts and questions, if I hadn't have answered any over the last few weeks you'd have had nothing.
I apologise if you were offended by anything I said, but reading some of the things people say like it being a scam is out of order, full stop.
Why say things like that when you know it's obviously not a scam?
I notice nobody has answered why you haven't engaged with the 1883 board yet?

rogue84 wrote:
I hope nobody minds me commenting on here, I am a York City fan, coming in peace.
As many of you know we've had a very successful week, however on our way home on sunday night, strangely you may think, the first thing we said when planning for 2012/13 was that we'd like to make a trip up to Darlo.
whatever ground or league you are playing in, we would like to join you at some stage and show our continued solidarity.
there's a much bigger picture sometimes in football than just following your own team - good luck with everything and hopefully we'll join you in the new campaign.

I trust I echo the sentiments of everyone on here, regardless of other opinions, when I thank you for your response and comments. To think of Darlo when your club has enjoyed so much success recently, makes us feel very humble and proud to be acquainted with you. Thanks again for your support and best wishes, you are a credit to your club, who we trust has continued success in the coming seasons.

Quakersam, maybe you should read what you say before you post it, my first attendance was nearly 50 years ago and I dont frequent forums, I know business and have made a lot of money over the years, there is not six websites simply six objectives to coherently join together and yes I would fully understand a business plan should one ever be published. Maybe you should stop answering in the tone you do at least 2 people have been put off investing directly by you!

doonhamer wrote:
Thanks for the response Quakersam, logic and commonsense in the article. I trust you are right in your hoped for crowd figures, that would be a bonus. Experience tells me that main problems for a part time club come via players wages. If in a higher league (Evostik) we need better quality players, they in turn want more money because giving up Saturday nights (which Northern League players don't miss for obvious reasons) for travelling has to pay better than local football. Blyth Spartans (average crowd last year 720) Durham City, Bishops and the Moors have all suffered from this in the last decade or so.

Exactly right. EvoStik 1 isn't an awful lot different from the NL, heck a good %age of NL clubs would hold their own in that league; Spenny, Whitley Bay, Dunston for example.
However you are right in saying costs are a big decision maker when clubs in that league apply to take promotion.
They blame travel costs on not going up to the Evo1, however they will pay players probably more than Evo1 clubs do.
Durham City have blamed travel costs in the Evo and have taken voluntary relegation down to the NL this season.
My only worry is that if we do drop into the NL, it is an awfully strong league and you aren't guaranteed promotion. You must finish in the top 2 (top 3 from 2013/14) to be considered for promotion.
However only two clubs drop down from the Evo1, but you have the NL, the NCEL and the NWCL all wanting promotion (6 clubs going for 2 spots), so you can see why it's not guaranteed.

The Northern League is largely becoming a bottleneck with no clubs being promoted for the last few years, despite Spennymoor winning the title 3 years running..

Its a catch 22, I hope we will be put in the EvoStik but the FA ultimately have that decision and we will have to take whatever that might be

morgan1 wrote:
Quakersam, maybe you should read what you say before you post it, my first attendance was nearly 50 years ago and I dont frequent forums, I know business and have made a lot of money over the years, there is not six websites simply six objectives to coherently join together and yes I would fully understand a business plan should one ever be published. Maybe you should stop answering in the tone you do at least 2 people have been put off investing directly by you!

I will do in future, but so should you, making out that what DFC 1883 are trying to do is a scam is simply untrue and could be very damaging, can you at least see where I'm coming from?
If your first attendance was over 50 years ago then I admire that hugely. I can only look highly upon those who have supported the club for that long and have put up with what has been thrown at us recently.

I think things could be clearer but at the end of the day the message is simply to get this club back on its feet. This is to be done by investing in a CIC. This was proposed because it allows the club to apply for govm't grants and/or football community grants. To be eligible for grants, a CIC must engage with its local community by offering services such as a youth football academy or fitness programmes, what have you. This is why these objectives have been stated (i assume these are the ones you are talking about?)

Quakersam, I am sorry you simply do not get it, you cannot run a football club on grants, or on a CIC, if you ever want to be back in English main league football.
You need money and lots of it, you simply cannot achieve this without the ability to offer a return on investment.

With all the other clubs why is Darlo so special that sufficient grants are going to flow in the clubs direction, if you think this you are going to be very dissappointed.
PS:- Stenhousemuir is an nice example but I dont think you can get relegated from Scottish Div 3, simply not the lower league structures in place, so you always have more top league opporuntities in Scotland, not the case in the English leagues.

Appreciate that and I agree with you. I don't think anybody is kidding themselves in thinking that a club can be built on grants but they help. The majority of money will come from fans / fundraising and what the club makes from season to season.
It may take a number of years to get back to the Conference but without ambition we might as well give up now.
Nobody is saying it's an ideal scenario but this is what we're left with. After 3 times being screwed over by businessmen we're not going to fall for the trap again and let a sole person have responsibility for the assets of this football club, hence why the 15% individual ownership was brought in. The CIC will probably hold the majority by having 51%, but this will be made up of x number of fans' membership.
Nobody is saying it's going to be a success but other clubs have taken the fan ownership route (Chester/FC United/Ebbsfleet) and they cope without the rich financial backer. We are willing to give it a shot, there's no reason why it can't work here, especially with the fanbase we have

morgan1 wrote:
Quakersam, I am sorry you simply do not get it, you cannot run a football club on grants, or on a CIC, if you ever want to be back in English main league football. You need money and lots of it, you simply cannot achieve this without the ability to offer a return on investment. With all the other clubs why is Darlo so special that sufficient grants are going to flow in the clubs direction, if you think this you are going to be very dissappointed. PS:- Stenhousemuir is an nice example but I dont think you can get relegated from Scottish Div 3, simply not the lower league structures in place, so you always have more top league opporuntities in Scotland, not the case in the English leagues.

Ideally DFC want to get back into the league but the key aim is to be sustainable at what ever level we end up at be that EvoStik or BSN or BSP!! Getting back into the league is the bonus.
To be honest you come across as being a deliberately negative, glass half empty type of person.
As i have said before, dont invest if you dont want to or if you think its a scam.