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Archbishop of York warns against gay marriage

MARRIAGE WARNING: Dr John Sentamu MARRIAGE WARNING: Dr John Sentamu

THE Archbishop of York has said Ministers should not overrule the Bible by allowing same-sex marriage and that marriage must remain a union between a man and a woman.

In an interview with the Daily Telegraph, Dr John Sentamu said marriage is set in history and the state cannot change it overnight.

He said: "I don't think it is the role of the state to define what marriage is. It is set in tradition and history and you can't just (change it) overnight, no matter how powerful you are.

"We've seen dictators do it in different contexts and I don't want to redefine very clear social structures that have been in existence for a long time and then overnight the state believes it could go in a particular way.

"It's almost like somebody telling you overnight that the Church, whose job is to worship God (that it will be) an arm of the Armed Forces. They must take arms and fight. You're completely changing tradition."

The Government will open a consultation on the issue in March.

Dr Sentamu said the bishops in the House of Lords did not try to stop Labour introducing civil partnerships in 2004, giving same-sex couples improved legal rights.

He added the Church was also content with last year's move to allow civil partnership ceremonies in places of worship, as long as it is voluntary and agreed by the governing body of any particular denomination.

But Dr Sentamu said the Government would face a rebellion on any changes in legislation on gay civil marriage.

"The rebellion is going to come not only from the bishops. You're going to get it from across the benches and in the Commons.

"If you genuinely would like the registration of civil partnerships to happen in a more general way, most people will say they can see the drift. But if you begin to call those marriage, you're trying to change the English language.

"That does not mean you diminish, condemn, criticise, patronise any same-sex relationships because that is not what the debate is about.

"The Church has always stood out - Jesus actually was the odd man out. I'd rather stick with Jesus than be popular because it looks odd."

Dr Sentamu has previously expressed concern over the gay marriage of homosexual clergy after two reverends exchanged rings and vows at a service held in St Bartholomew the Great Church in the City of London in 2008 In a joint statement with the Archbishop of Canterbury Dr Rowan Williams, he said: "Those clergy who disagree with the Church's teaching are at liberty to seek to persuade others within the Church of the reasons why they believe, in the light of Scripture, tradition and reason that it should be changed.

"But they are not at liberty simply to disregard it."

Comments(33)

darloab99 says...
7:22am Sat 28 Jan 12

You'd think being black that he'd maybe not be so narrow minded and bigoted. He'd maybe look at the bigger picture and accept and forgive. This is basically just a poor attempt by a dying and worthless cult to drum up some business and PR with some controversial opinions. The "Bible" is just a bunch of plagiarised tall tales from history with a fictional "God" central character. It's hardly a book of facts, merely a theological hypothesis that has no factual bearing on modern society. Move aside old man, your views are weak and outdated. It's time to finally turn our back on religion and the animosity and tension it causes. It is THE reason that any conflict has begun in the world. For shame!

barbs151010 says...
8:11am Sat 28 Jan 12

This country has turned its back on religion, the Bible and God and that is why its in the state it is.

Mr M says...
9:09am Sat 28 Jan 12

What darloab99 says.......

To build our laws around superstition and a book of fairy stories has no place in 2012.

Some people are Gay. Get over it and worry about the important things like poverty, global warming, wars, greedy bankers, I could go on.

CTRILEY says...
9:18am Sat 28 Jan 12

barbs151010 wrote:
This country has turned its back on religion, the Bible and God and that is why its in the state it is.
Before it do so what did we have torture, oppression, genocide, slavery, women had virutally no rights, child labour, intolerence, people could be tortured and executed for questioning the churches version of anything.

The seperation of Church from state people could think and believe as they which. This created the grounds upon which accelerating advances in science, technology, medicince, etc., that we can send probes into space, put men on the moon, etc.

Those nations where religion still dominates, where there has been no seperation form religion and state are stuck in the dark ages.

CTRILEY says...
9:33am Sat 28 Jan 12

Incidently, after the death of Christ some of the remaining disciples of Christ, his brothers and sisters ("Is this not the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?" Matthew 13:55-56)
founded the Church of Jerusalem, from which came the Coptic Church and the Celtic Church, which did allow gay marriages.

However, St Paul (known as "Paul the liar" within the "Dead Sea Scrolls") believed differently from those who actualy met and knew Jesus so he founded his own Church in opposition to the Church of Jerusalem and by making the Romans think that they supported the Jewish rebbellion against the Romans got the Romans to wipe it out.

So Christianity is largely St Paul's version of Christianity, not that of Jesus.

Colcat says...
12:19pm Sat 28 Jan 12

Wow! Some sense being offered at last. In a brief article I read the other week, one cleric was commenting on a document produced for the CoE which reviewed the whole issue of whether bishops can be practising gays, and it stated that within the bible the "sin" of having pre-marital sex, the "sin" of divorcing and re-marrying, and the "sin" of being a practising gay were all of equally bad 'status' within the bible (can't remember the exact wording). Yet why do so many religious people persecute only one of these groups? In other, more religious societies (take note barbs151010) if a woman is raped she is sentenced to death by stoning unless she agrees to marry her rapist! It's not just a Muslim thing, but if you were to follow the Christian bible as literally as these bigots such as Sentamu, then it should happen here, too.
.
But I feel, darloab99 and CTRILEY, that we are pee-ing into the wind with some people. (Doesn't mean we should stop!) As a certain TV character once said: "if you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people."

MSG says...
12:25pm Sat 28 Jan 12

A persons sexuality is their own business.
What the Archbishop should be speaking out about is the lifting of the ban on aborion clinics advertising on the TV & radio. He should be advocating tighter availability & reduced time limits for abortions to take place. The babies being aborted now have a chance of survival due to advances in treatment, and abortion is not contraception, and also it is a scandal that the male partner has no say over the birth process of their child!!!

the-big-yin says...
1:45pm Sat 28 Jan 12

darloab99 wrote:
You'd think being black that he'd maybe not be so narrow minded and bigoted. He'd maybe look at the bigger picture and accept and forgive. This is basically just a poor attempt by a dying and worthless cult to drum up some business and PR with some controversial opinions. The "Bible" is just a bunch of plagiarised tall tales from history with a fictional "God" central character. It's hardly a book of facts, merely a theological hypothesis that has no factual bearing on modern society. Move aside old man, your views are weak and outdated. It's time to finally turn our back on religion and the animosity and tension it causes. It is THE reason that any conflict has begun in the world. For shame!
well said...

Colcat says...
2:16pm Sat 28 Jan 12

Let's face it, what would happen if two gay men or women were allowed to marry? Would the world come to an end? Would it be the fall of the human species? No, two people and their families would end up happy (at least for a while). That's all!

CTRILEY says...
9:02pm Sat 28 Jan 12

Anyhow here's a thought:

Childhood and adolescence can always be a difficult time for some. Natural changes in the body affect behaviour, as can the pressure from peers and society as a whole. Other changes in behaviour may be the result of problems over sexuality, bullying, abuse, broken homes, etc., which in some cases may cause a child or teenager to wet their bed.

Within the Britain and other parts of the world there are children and teenagers who instead of getting the comfort, sympathy and help they need from those they trust the most, find themselves being brutalised, tortured and abused until they die from their injuries.

Instead of speaking about against same sex marriages, why doesn’t the Archbishop of York start speaking out against the centuries of lies, deceit and bigoted hatred created, spread, encouraged and still perpetuated by the Christian Church against witches and pagans which is the cause of such deaths?

GeordieB says...
11:16am Sun 29 Jan 12

Civil Partnership / Marriage. In the real world what's the difference?

The Church, sitting on millions of pounds has no right to comment on anything until they practice what they preach and help the poor.

Disestablishment can't come soon enough.

robbiejay says...
8:10pm Sun 29 Jan 12

darloab99 wrote:
You'd think being black that he'd maybe not be so narrow minded and bigoted. He'd maybe look at the bigger picture and accept and forgive. This is basically just a poor attempt by a dying and worthless cult to drum up some business and PR with some controversial opinions. The "Bible" is just a bunch of plagiarised tall tales from history with a fictional "God" central character. It's hardly a book of facts, merely a theological hypothesis that has no factual bearing on modern society. Move aside old man, your views are weak and outdated. It's time to finally turn our back on religion and the animosity and tension it causes. It is THE reason that any conflict has begun in the world. For shame!
Well said! The Bible is merely a work of fiction, nothing more. Hopefully religion will die a death in the next few hundred years and then all this fighting can come to an end

cj-dog says...
12:37am Mon 30 Jan 12

I noticed he makes no comment on the corrupt sham marriages conducted by black clergy in this country in an attempt to circumvent immigration law and assist his fellow africans in stealing benefits from the law-abiding tax payers of this country.

I suspect that there are the 'liberal-minded' socialists who find my comment offensive.
But the truth is there for all to see and reported in several recent court cases so my comments cannot be classes as racist - although his comments are definitely homophobic and therefore legally classed as inflammatory and promoting discrimination against minorities.
I can't see the police bringing a case against him.

No doubt the N Echo will suppress my comments.

Thomas Atkins says...
12:51pm Mon 30 Jan 12

Although it's now unfashionable to have such opinions and, looking at some of the comments here, very unwise to suggest such things - the fact remains that there are some people (yes I know, bigots, homophobes, dinosaurs etc. etc.) who genuinely believe that homosexuality is wrong. No amount of legislation or opinion to the contrary will change that. Get used to it.

The Grandmaster says...
1:17pm Mon 30 Jan 12

the-big-yin wrote:
darloab99 wrote: You'd think being black that he'd maybe not be so narrow minded and bigoted. He'd maybe look at the bigger picture and accept and forgive. This is basically just a poor attempt by a dying and worthless cult to drum up some business and PR with some controversial opinions. The "Bible" is just a bunch of plagiarised tall tales from history with a fictional "God" central character. It's hardly a book of facts, merely a theological hypothesis that has no factual bearing on modern society. Move aside old man, your views are weak and outdated. It's time to finally turn our back on religion and the animosity and tension it causes. It is THE reason that any conflict has begun in the world. For shame!
well said...
Eh? Darloab99 and the big yin! Let me know how the fact he is black comes into your thoughts? What's colour got to do with this??? Is it cos I is black aye! Personally I think that Dr John Sentamu has done a excellent job to date - let him express his thoughts regardless if they are right/wrong/narrow minded/bigoted!

fraggle1 says...
4:30pm Mon 30 Jan 12

In this day and age dose it really matter if your gay or not ? I am sure there are alot more important subjects we should be concentrating on.

kristal27 says...
5:53pm Mon 30 Jan 12

the Archbishop said

kristal27 says...
5:59pm Mon 30 Jan 12

the Archbishop said”

It's almost like somebody telling you overnight that the Church, whose job is to worship God (that it will be) an arm of the Armed Forces. They must take arms and fight. You're completely changing tradition

whaat? onward christian soldiers and all that.. woman and children murdered by the army of the Lord (crusaders) in the name of christianity - thousands of men and woman murdered as witches for the simple reason they knew how to heal with herbs - more wars and killing started through religion than politics - and they throw a wobbly cos two people want to get married cos they love one another - incredible....

antagonist1 says...
11:30pm Mon 30 Jan 12

they all bum each other anyway.

the-big-yin says...
10:53am Tue 31 Jan 12

The Grandmaster wrote:
the-big-yin wrote:
darloab99 wrote: You'd think being black that he'd maybe not be so narrow minded and bigoted. He'd maybe look at the bigger picture and accept and forgive. This is basically just a poor attempt by a dying and worthless cult to drum up some business and PR with some controversial opinions. The "Bible" is just a bunch of plagiarised tall tales from history with a fictional "God" central character. It's hardly a book of facts, merely a theological hypothesis that has no factual bearing on modern society. Move aside old man, your views are weak and outdated. It's time to finally turn our back on religion and the animosity and tension it causes. It is THE reason that any conflict has begun in the world. For shame!
well said...
Eh? Darloab99 and the big yin! Let me know how the fact he is black comes into your thoughts? What's colour got to do with this??? Is it cos I is black aye! Personally I think that Dr John Sentamu has done a excellent job to date - let him express his thoughts regardless if they are right/wrong/narrow minded/bigoted!
it would not matter if he was black ..grey ...pink ...yellow or green ....what he is saying is a load of ****....he should not be saying these things, whilst everyone has a right to free speech, being in his position he should think before he unleashes ridiculous comments..what is wrong with gay and lesbian marriages...NOTHING!
!! the bible says that as well....so if he believes the bible, why is he saying this?????poor people are everywhere..so why does the church not hand out any of the millions it has stashed away to them? you never see a poor vicar do you...big houses paid for.....time for the church to pull their finger out and get back to the basics......help the needy and not those without need....

kristal27 says...
10:54am Tue 31 Jan 12

antagonist1 wrote:
they all bum each other anyway.
thats the other lot is'nt it ? Archbishop is Church of England - at least they let thoer vicars get married. The Catholic lot are the worst hypocrits - they don't even want woman priests cos its less fresh young boys for the old priests ;-)

antagonist1 says...
2:26pm Tue 31 Jan 12

i stand corrected..

doonhamer says...
3:41pm Tue 31 Jan 12

Queer means odd. Gay means happy, joyful (as in When Johnny Comes Marching Home) or is a female name. If you have an odd button on a shirt you replace it with a one that matches/conforms. The odd one is discarded/destroyed. Anything odd/different can cause problems(eg diesel in the tank instead of petrol) therefore the odd things should be discarded. Das Reich and Der Fuhrer regiments of the Waffen SS would totally understand what I mean.

CTRILEY says...
4:02pm Tue 31 Jan 12

Doonhammer, news for you homoeroticism pervaded Nazi rituals, practices and the masculine imagery of Nazi propaganda films, whilst during the 1930s many prominent Nazi’s were openly homosexual and throughout the Second World War Germanys racially pure Aryan elite the SS was riddled with homosexuals from the foot soldier all the way up to those under the direct command of Heinrich Himmler, leader of the SS.

Whilst the Nazi ideal of the master race was a blue, blonde haired, unquestioning imbecile. May this is why the they were physically, mentally and intellectuality defeated by those they viewed as inferior.

CTRILEY says...
4:20pm Tue 31 Jan 12

Let's not forget as for "odd things" Georing was a cross-dressing drug addict who had spent time in the Langbro mental asylum.

Himmler a 4 eyed chicken farmer who thought he was knight of the round table. Let's not forget Hitler - a talentless house painter, one balled, mummies boy who according to those who knew during WWI was a homosexual.

doonhamer says...
4:40pm Tue 31 Jan 12

Seem to have upset a few queer folk, pity their English lessons at school didn't do much for their "grammar". Obviously German was beyond their scope at senior school, but they have had a go at the Germans from World War 2 without quite explaining how they feel about the main topic in question, eg, queer meaning odd. Easily led astray and off course eh, CT Riley

doonhamer says...
5:06pm Tue 31 Jan 12

Deutschland, Deutschland Uber Alles Uber Alles In Der Welt, Wenn Es Stetu Zu Schutz Und Trutze Bruderlick Zusammenhalt, Von Der Maas Bu An Die Memel, Von Der Etsch Bis An Den Belt - Deutschland, Deutschland Uber Alles Uber Alles In Der Welt ....................
......... Well CT Riley, no doubt descended from a tatty picker, who rules Europe NOW !!! (ask the Banks if your educational limitations hinder you from hazarding an intellectual guess)

CTRILEY says...
9:37pm Tue 31 Jan 12

Doonhamer, is quoting the opening stanza from the German National anthem supposed to impress anyone or form the basis for an intelligent counter argument? It was you who took the subject off course by bringing up Hitler (Das Fuhrer, the Leader), the 3rd Reich (Das Reich, the Empire) and the Waffen SS (Waffen Schutzstaffel, “Armed SS” or more accurately "Armed Protective Squadron").

What you perceive as my so called "educational limitations" do not hinder me from knowing that those who resort to derisory comments do so to sound big and to detract from their own intellectual and educational failings.

CTRILEY says...
10:11pm Tue 31 Jan 12

Dynamitedavey, interesting points but if you ask about grammar I suggest you read Genesis 1:26. It states “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:” So if there is only one God, we are created by God and in the image of God why is this in the plural and not the singular?

What is also true about the Bible is that changes within its meaning have occurred due to difference in vowels during translation. According the Bible God took a rib from Adam and created woman. The vowel used is “i” to give “rib” as in the bone, however according to the Talmud the vowel which should be used is the accented vowel “í” which means that original spelling was ríb meaning “half”. Consider the implications of that?

Equally the Israelites didn’t cross the Red Sea they actually crossed the Reed Sea, which is reed marched area in Southern Egypt.

Whilst a common term of reference for God is “My Lord”, which translates from the Hebrew word `Adonai’ meaning `My Lord’. When the pronoun `ai’ (meaning `my or `mine’) is removed the word remaining is `Adon’ meaning `Lord’. When translating between Ancient Egyptian and Hebrew ,the Egyptian `t’ becomes `d’ and `e’ becomes `o’, making `Adon’ the Hebrew word for `Aten’. So `Adonai’ meaning “My Lord” actually mean “My Aten” who was the God of the mono-theology called Atenism founded Pharaoh Akhenaten.

CTRILEY says...
10:29pm Tue 31 Jan 12

CTRILEY wrote:
Doonhamer, is quoting the opening stanza from the German National anthem supposed to impress anyone or form the basis for an intelligent counter argument? It was you who took the subject off course by bringing up Hitler (Das Fuhrer, the Leader), the 3rd Reich (Das Reich, the Empire) and the Waffen SS (Waffen Schutzstaffel, “Armed SS” or more accurately "Armed Protective Squadron"). What you perceive as my so called "educational limitations" do not hinder me from knowing that those who resort to derisory comments do so to sound big and to detract from their own intellectual and educational failings.
By the way there is an intended error within this (ask the Banks if your educational limitations hinder you from hazarding an intellectual guess).

Ahoy Tiny Crisp says...
10:31am Wed 1 Feb 12

Mr M wrote:
What darloab99 says.......

To build our laws around superstition and a book of fairy stories has no place in 2012.

Some people are Gay. Get over it and worry about the important things like poverty, global warming, wars, greedy bankers, I could go on.
so do...erm....Mr M

JohnSmith2 says...
5:22pm Wed 1 Feb 12

Thomas Atkins wrote:
Although it's now unfashionable to have such opinions and, looking at some of the comments here, very unwise to suggest such things - the fact remains that there are some people (yes I know, bigots, homophobes, dinosaurs etc. etc.) who genuinely believe that homosexuality is wrong. No amount of legislation or opinion to the contrary will change that. Get used to it.
The main point though is not to change these people's opinions but to stop their opinions from denying other people the same basic civil rights as everyone else.

It's not so long ago that the CoE apologised for it's treatment of black slaves throughout it's history. Back then it was everyone's 'opinion' that this treatment was OK too.

the-big-yin says...
3:12pm Thu 2 Feb 12

religion...the great destroyer of lives and communities.........
.

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