MoD apologise over Catterick Garrison firing range 'mosques'

7:40am Friday 9th April 2010 in News Photograph of the Author By Joe Willis, Regional Chief Reporter

UNDER FIRE: The Army firing range near Catterick, North Yorkshire, where the target mosques angered ethnic minority leaders. The Ministry of Defence removed the domes last night UNDER FIRE: The Army firing range near Catterick, North Yorkshire, where the target mosques angered ethnic minority leaders. The Ministry of Defence removed the domes last night

THE Ministry of Defence (MoD) started to dismantle models of mosques built on an Army firing range last night after being accused of helping to radicalise young Muslims.

North-East Islamic groups had condemned the seven cutouts erected on military ranges on Bellerby Moor, near Leyburn, North Yorkshire.

Workmen last night removed the green domes from the structures, after the MoD issued an apology for any offence caused.

Turki Aba-Alala, president of Newcastle Islamic Society, said: “This suggests the Army is targeting mosques rather than terrorists. It makes the Muslim students coming to this country, and Muslims from the UK more scared.

“Things like this just increase the insecurity of young Muslims and can help to radicalise them.”

Ali Luft, from the Muslim Federation Cleveland, also criticised the decision to build the models.

He said: “It just doesn’t look right. It’s disturbing people when they hear about it.

“They should be training soldiers in streets, mountains or caves where these people hide – not mosques.” The firing range is used by troops from Europe’s biggest Army base at nearby Catterick Garrison.

Some of the mosques had single domes and others had double domes. The structures, which are visible from a public road, were first brought to the attention of the Bradford Council for Mosques (BMC) by a passer-by.

BMC members, who have visited the range to inspect the models, said yesterday that the mosques were being used as a symbol of danger and served to reinforce negative stereotypes of Muslims.

Mohammed Saleem Khan, chief executive of the council, said the shape and colour of the structures – a green dome – symbolised an Islamic place of worship.

“It is so obvious,” he said.

“Even a non-Muslim recognised the significance. The first person who raised the issue with us was a non-Muslim.”

In response, the Army said it was vital soldiers trained in an environment which replicated where they were deployed.

Officials said the facilities at Bellerby Moor had been upgraded recently following feedback from troops in Afghanistan.

A spokesman said the structures were meant to be generic Eastern buildings rather than mosques, and were not used as target practice.

He added: “We apologise for any offence that we may have caused. It was never our intention for these generic structures to look like or replicate mosques, only to provide a setting similar to operational environments in which our personnel could train.

“We are seeking a meeting with representatives from the Muslim community to hear their concerns in order to discuss the way forward. We are in the process of removing the offending structures.”

Comments (42)

3:08pm Thu 8 Apr 10

jj47 says...

Are they not fighting in areas that have mosque's???????? With respect to our muslim brothers, who live in a Christian country which is trying to help them from being subjected to ill treatment from their own muslim brothers, why dont they go back to their country of origin/relgion and also protest there!
Are they not fighting in areas that have mosque's???????? With respect to our muslim brothers, who live in a Christian country which is trying to help them from being subjected to ill treatment from their own muslim brothers, why dont they go back to their country of origin/relgion and also protest there! jj47

3:58pm Thu 8 Apr 10

Acorn Col says...

Having spent a great deal of my adult life on Bellerby ranges whilst in the Army, I am almost positive that they are nowhere near Bradford.
Therefore, I would be interested to know how the existance of these Mock-sques came to the attention of the Muslim Council.
Could it be some of their less that friendly members were sneaking in a bit of illegal training instead of attending their standard package holiday, terrorist camps?
Strangly enough, I have also been to a couple of McDonalds that bear a close resemblance to these targets and I don't here them making too much noise about it!!!
Having spent a great deal of my adult life on Bellerby ranges whilst in the Army, I am almost positive that they are nowhere near Bradford. Therefore, I would be interested to know how the existance of these Mock-sques came to the attention of the Muslim Council. Could it be some of their less that friendly members were sneaking in a bit of illegal training instead of attending their standard package holiday, terrorist camps? Strangly enough, I have also been to a couple of McDonalds that bear a close resemblance to these targets and I don't here them making too much noise about it!!! Acorn Col

4:34pm Thu 8 Apr 10

Super steve says...

Many of my family have fought and served in Iraq , Kuwait and Afghanistan, and the muslims over there have absolutely no problem as using mosques as places to train terrorists, snipe at soldiers from, hide weapons and explosives in.The Muslims dont respect the sanctity or the mosque so why should we.

I agree with JJ47 Why dont the very vocal professional victims of the muslim community go out and help liberate their own fellow muslims, Then we can bring home our boys nice and safe.

No I thought not, Instead of attacking our brave troops and being constantly offended by everything British why dont the muslims go and show solidarity with our lads if they TRULY consider themselves to be British.
Many of my family have fought and served in Iraq , Kuwait and Afghanistan, and the muslims over there have absolutely no problem as using mosques as places to train terrorists, snipe at soldiers from, hide weapons and explosives in.The Muslims dont respect the sanctity or the mosque so why should we. I agree with JJ47 Why dont the very vocal professional victims of the muslim community go out and help liberate their own fellow muslims, Then we can bring home our boys nice and safe. No I thought not, Instead of attacking our brave troops and being constantly offended by everything British why dont the muslims go and show solidarity with our lads if they TRULY consider themselves to be British. Super steve

4:39pm Thu 8 Apr 10

Donna Mortimer says...

I can not believe that this has happened. How much more do we have to do to accommodate the Muslim people who come here to live. Its ok for a group of muslims to stand and call soldiers baby killers and rapist in Luton or to have 89 Sharia Law courts running in our country going against out laws of the land. Its ok to have the Likes of Anjem Choudary making threats and using the Koran for these threats. Its ok to have a labour MP talk about how he is sending money to muslim countries to the tune of just under 1 billion pound in 2007. Yet we have to say " sorry" for having a building shape the same as mosques OUR soldiers will face in Iraq and Afghanistan,, this country has gone utterly Bonkers..
All this is fact and can be proven if you care to look for it.
I can not believe that this has happened. How much more do we have to do to accommodate the Muslim people who come here to live. Its ok for a group of muslims to stand and call soldiers baby killers and rapist in Luton or to have 89 Sharia Law courts running in our country going against out laws of the land. Its ok to have the Likes of Anjem Choudary making threats and using the Koran for these threats. Its ok to have a labour MP talk about how he is sending money to muslim countries to the tune of just under 1 billion pound in 2007. Yet we have to say " sorry" for having a building shape the same as mosques OUR soldiers will face in Iraq and Afghanistan,, this country has gone utterly Bonkers.. All this is fact and can be proven if you care to look for it. Donna Mortimer

4:45pm Thu 8 Apr 10

smoothnapper says...

i'm on the ranges next week, any chance of the bradford muslim council doing a couple of statics for me.
i'm on the ranges next week, any chance of the bradford muslim council doing a couple of statics for me. smoothnapper

4:56pm Thu 8 Apr 10

Donna Mortimer says...

Do you know what . I am OUTRAGED and angered at this..
Our soldiers are NOT allowed to fire onto a religious building in Any place like Iraq or Afghanistan and they islamic militants know this. They also know how to play the Geneva Convertion to. Maybe the Muslim Council should stand against the Extremist Islamic Groups we have in the UK rather than soldiers passed and present who fought to make this country GREAT. this is a free country you are free to enter thanx to Labour and guess what .. your free to leave. If you dont like England please do not stay BUT please do not try and change it into the countries that many of you ran from. All i can say is. Thank god people are seeing how the islamic groups are taking over our country,
Do you know what . I am OUTRAGED and angered at this.. Our soldiers are NOT allowed to fire onto a religious building in Any place like Iraq or Afghanistan and they islamic militants know this. They also know how to play the Geneva Convertion to. Maybe the Muslim Council should stand against the Extremist Islamic Groups we have in the UK rather than soldiers passed and present who fought to make this country GREAT. this is a free country you are free to enter thanx to Labour and guess what .. your free to leave. If you dont like England please do not stay BUT please do not try and change it into the countries that many of you ran from. All i can say is. Thank god people are seeing how the islamic groups are taking over our country, Donna Mortimer

5:09pm Thu 8 Apr 10

bunt61 says...

Our Country,
Our Armed Forces,
Our Ranges.....
I am sure you know what you can do if you dont like it.
Our Country, Our Armed Forces, Our Ranges..... I am sure you know what you can do if you dont like it. bunt61

5:49pm Thu 8 Apr 10

cj-dog says...

Yet again this left-wing cowardly PC Govt kow-tow's to the vociferous muslim minority who obviously don't like this country ..but stay because its safer than their own ..and offers more welfare benefits.
To quote Kevin Rudd(Australian PM) on the subject of muslims -
'This is a christian country so please don't attack our christian values. If you don't like it please feel free to leave and find somewhere you will be happy as no-one forced you to come here and no-one is stopping you leaving.'
Yet again this left-wing cowardly PC Govt kow-tow's to the vociferous muslim minority who obviously don't like this country ..but stay because its safer than their own ..and offers more welfare benefits. To quote Kevin Rudd(Australian PM) on the subject of muslims - 'This is a christian country so please don't attack our christian values. If you don't like it please feel free to leave and find somewhere you will be happy as no-one forced you to come here and no-one is stopping you leaving.' cj-dog

5:56pm Thu 8 Apr 10

assasin420 says...

Well it won't be long now before we live in New Afghanistan or New Iraq, our churces will be cafe's and our day will revolve around call to prayers.

All this is doing is fuelling support for BNP who seem to be the only party telling us there IS a problem with this country being taken over by the muslim faith and anybody else who wants to live of us taxpayers!

In some ways its a shame Guy Fawkes got caught!
Well it won't be long now before we live in New Afghanistan or New Iraq, our churces will be cafe's and our day will revolve around call to prayers. All this is doing is fuelling support for BNP who seem to be the only party telling us there IS a problem with this country being taken over by the muslim faith and anybody else who wants to live of us taxpayers! In some ways its a shame Guy Fawkes got caught! assasin420

6:20pm Thu 8 Apr 10

Senor says...

Like the rest of the comments, this really makes me sick and we all know why. An election coming up and kow tow to the Muslims, AGAIN.
Tell them to go back?? Never there are no benefits over there and they do as they are told over there but here do what the hell you want and UK will let you.
I have said this before, a very educated man said by 2050 UK will be under Shia Law. How many Muslim MP's were there in 1997 and how many in the last government and how many estimated in next???
Remember it makes no difference what Party they hide under, they are and always will be Muslims first and only obey the Iman.
Again I agree that only the BNP know there is a problem although some of their other ideas leave a lot to be desired.
Like the rest of the comments, this really makes me sick and we all know why. An election coming up and kow tow to the Muslims, AGAIN. Tell them to go back?? Never there are no benefits over there and they do as they are told over there but here do what the hell you want and UK will let you. I have said this before, a very educated man said by 2050 UK will be under Shia Law. How many Muslim MP's were there in 1997 and how many in the last government and how many estimated in next??? Remember it makes no difference what Party they hide under, they are and always will be Muslims first and only obey the Iman. Again I agree that only the BNP know there is a problem although some of their other ideas leave a lot to be desired. Senor

6:36pm Thu 8 Apr 10

BMD says...

The Bradford council of Mosques should be supporting the British troops in using realistic structures to fine tune there fighting capability, after all once Iraq and Afghanistan is free from the Muslim Fundamentalist’s they will be safe to return to there forefathers homeland.
The Bradford council of Mosques should be supporting the British troops in using realistic structures to fine tune there fighting capability, after all once Iraq and Afghanistan is free from the Muslim Fundamentalist’s they will be safe to return to there forefathers homeland. BMD

6:36pm Thu 8 Apr 10

Big Dave says...

...which very educated man senor?It would appear from your title that you're an ex-pat...if that's the case I'd have a lot more time for your right wing scaremongering if you chose to still live here
...which very educated man senor?It would appear from your title that you're an ex-pat...if that's the case I'd have a lot more time for your right wing scaremongering if you chose to still live here Big Dave

6:52pm Thu 8 Apr 10

Senor says...

BIG DAVE I live in Spain half te year and the other half in UK. I am not scaremongering but saying what I was told and have tried to prove what was said about the Muslim MP's in Westminster but cannot because it will only be known in 30 years, why????
Try yourself to prove to me that this statement is not correct.
As for my title, I even say where I am. I not "right wing" and was at one time I Works Convenor.
BIG DAVE I live in Spain half te year and the other half in UK. I am not scaremongering but saying what I was told and have tried to prove what was said about the Muslim MP's in Westminster but cannot because it will only be known in 30 years, why???? Try yourself to prove to me that this statement is not correct. As for my title, I even say where I am. I not "right wing" and was at one time I Works Convenor. Senor

6:53pm Thu 8 Apr 10

*shakes head slowly* says...

Oh my god - I've turned into a muslim!!!!! Aieeeeee!!!!!!!
Oh my god - I've turned into a muslim!!!!! Aieeeeee!!!!!!! *shakes head slowly*

7:46pm Thu 8 Apr 10

Ian James says...

Next time our soldiers are out on the ranges training to protect our country. I hope they love every minute, blowing the hell out of them mosques coz at the end of the day these are things they see everyday over in Afghanistan and they are doing a brilliant job.
Next time our soldiers are out on the ranges training to protect our country. I hope they love every minute, blowing the hell out of them mosques coz at the end of the day these are things they see everyday over in Afghanistan and they are doing a brilliant job. Ian James

9:44pm Thu 8 Apr 10

Lord Storm says...

jj47 wrote:
Are they not fighting in areas that have mosque's???????? With respect to our muslim brothers, who live in a Christian country which is trying to help them from being subjected to ill treatment from their own muslim brothers, why dont they go back to their country of origin/relgion and also protest there!
Hypocrisy at it's finest. Perhaps we should flip things around. Christianity is banned in most Muslim countries so how about we knock down all Mosques and make the Koran an illegal subversive document and put anyone possessing the Koran on trial as a criminal against the state(sound familiar?). That would be fair as the Muslim states have set that president. I am getting fed up with our Governments weakness to stand up against these idiots who take offence at every small detail. There was something I knew of that overruled many things...common sense! I have steered away from Religion, because it is the biggest excuse for War and genocide on the planet, in my eyes Religion is not an acceptable excuse for such atrocities. GET A GRIP PEOPLE!
[quote][p][bold]jj47[/bold] wrote: Are they not fighting in areas that have mosque's???????? With respect to our muslim brothers, who live in a Christian country which is trying to help them from being subjected to ill treatment from their own muslim brothers, why dont they go back to their country of origin/relgion and also protest there![/p][/quote]Hypocrisy at it's finest. Perhaps we should flip things around. Christianity is banned in most Muslim countries so how about we knock down all Mosques and make the Koran an illegal subversive document and put anyone possessing the Koran on trial as a criminal against the state(sound familiar?). That would be fair as the Muslim states have set that president. I am getting fed up with our Governments weakness to stand up against these idiots who take offence at every small detail. There was something I knew of that overruled many things...common sense! I have steered away from Religion, because it is the biggest excuse for War and genocide on the planet, in my eyes Religion is not an acceptable excuse for such atrocities. GET A GRIP PEOPLE! Lord Storm

9:50pm Thu 8 Apr 10

Lord Storm says...

The quote in my previous statement was not intended. Apologies.

Our treatment of other nations and their treatment towards us does not make logical sense. If you treat someone with contempt expect contempt in return not a warm handshake(with the correct hand) and a pocket full of cash.
The quote in my previous statement was not intended. Apologies. Our treatment of other nations and their treatment towards us does not make logical sense. If you treat someone with contempt expect contempt in return not a warm handshake(with the correct hand) and a pocket full of cash. Lord Storm

10:15pm Thu 8 Apr 10

Donna Mortimer says...

Ok here is the link about Muslim Mps' by a labour Muslim MP..His name is Shahid Malik
http://www.youtube.c
om/watch?v=L1LXahun7
zo
This link has him talking how he sent money in the tune of nearly 1 billion to other muslim countries..
http://www.youtube.c
om/watch?v=6ZM2SA4QO
Xw&feature=related

Now who want to make us islamic?.
Ok here is the link about Muslim Mps' by a labour Muslim MP..His name is Shahid Malik http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=L1LXahun7 zo This link has him talking how he sent money in the tune of nearly 1 billion to other muslim countries.. http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=6ZM2SA4QO Xw&feature=related Now who want to make us islamic?. Donna Mortimer

10:58pm Thu 8 Apr 10

DWilson says...

What. The. Flip????

Seriously some winding in of necks is required here.

The suggestion that some "fine tuning of fighting capability" would result from this is quite frankly absurd. I can see it now "Aim for the green dome. AIM-FOR-THE-GREEN-DO
ME!!" It reads like a bl***y comedy sketch. Who knows where it could lead? St. Paul's Cathedral succumbs to friendly fire decades after surviving the blitz?
Seriously our troops are amongst the best trained and tactically astute in the world. They do NOT need such a pointless prop for target practice.
This is a secular country and despite the Daily Mail style scaremongering will NEVER become Islamified. Deal with it and grow up! Like many of you, I also find the idea of the "Islamification of Britain" abhorent. However I also feel the same about ANY religion trying to dominate. That said I respect people's right/preference to faith and therefore do not find Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Jedis etc. abhorent. It's the fundamentalists who need sectioning! I also do wonder how many contributors who bleat on about our "Christian country" actually attend church outwith Weddings, Christenings and Funerals.
Turning it on it's head a bit, we have all seen video footage of these training camps in Afghanistan and some of us regardless of political leaning know full well that it is of people training to do harm to the likes of ALL of us, but to many it is just FOOTAGE, it doesn't RESONATE. Now visualise this, those same training camps, but with mock ups of thatched cottages, churches, village greens, pubs, 2 up - 2 down terraces, houses with bay windows. How does that resonate with you now? It makes me feel sick. It also makes me realise how uncomfortable a lot of Muslims in this country must feel.
This is a war against terrorism remember. Not Muslims
What. The. Flip???? Seriously some winding in of necks is required here. The suggestion that some "fine tuning of fighting capability" would result from this is quite frankly absurd. I can see it now "Aim for the green dome. AIM-FOR-THE-GREEN-DO ME!!" It reads like a bl***y comedy sketch. Who knows where it could lead? St. Paul's Cathedral succumbs to friendly fire decades after surviving the blitz? Seriously our troops are amongst the best trained and tactically astute in the world. They do NOT need such a pointless prop for target practice. This is a secular country and despite the Daily Mail style scaremongering will NEVER become Islamified. Deal with it and grow up! Like many of you, I also find the idea of the "Islamification of Britain" abhorent. However I also feel the same about ANY religion trying to dominate. That said I respect people's right/preference to faith and therefore do not find Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Jedis etc. abhorent. It's the fundamentalists who need sectioning! I also do wonder how many contributors who bleat on about our "Christian country" actually attend church outwith Weddings, Christenings and Funerals. Turning it on it's head a bit, we have all seen video footage of these training camps in Afghanistan and some of us regardless of political leaning know full well that it is of people training to do harm to the likes of ALL of us, but to many it is just FOOTAGE, it doesn't RESONATE. Now visualise this, those same training camps, but with mock ups of thatched cottages, churches, village greens, pubs, 2 up - 2 down terraces, houses with bay windows. How does that resonate with you now? It makes me feel sick. It also makes me realise how uncomfortable a lot of Muslims in this country must feel. This is a war against terrorism remember. Not Muslims DWilson

11:51pm Thu 8 Apr 10

Mash says...

It doesn't look like out American friends have the same scruples!

http://www.youtube.c
om/watch?v=lfACP9rPC
cc
It doesn't look like out American friends have the same scruples! http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=lfACP9rPC cc Mash

12:14am Fri 9 Apr 10

simmo3578 says...

theirs always one got stick up for our muslim friends. like an earlier post, I wonder how they found out about this? undercover muslim soldier?
theirs always one got stick up for our muslim friends. like an earlier post, I wonder how they found out about this? undercover muslim soldier? simmo3578

6:29am Fri 9 Apr 10

DWilson says...

Which proves you did not read the report properly as it quite clearly states the complainants found out from a non- Muslim source. Maybe it was just a regular soldier who thought hang on a sec, I don't NEED tarted up buildings to improve my effectiveness.
Anyway, I wonder how much of our money it cost. Couldn't it have been more wisely spent in some way to better protect our troops actually in the field of operations? I'm sure it could.
Terrorism is the main enemy at present and religion is almost always at the core of that. The overwhelming terrorist threat (to us) is from Muslim extremists. That does NOT however make all Muslims the enemy. Your idiotic comments however suggest that you think they are. There is little hope for you. New enemies can thrive in such a paranoid environment as the heat is off them.
For the record I find elements of Islam peaceful and with good intention just as I do with Christianity. However my over abiding impression of BOTH is that they are still essentially awful, backward, arrogant, mysogynistic, hypocritical, bloodthirsty religions and the world would be a much better place without both.
Which proves you did not read the report properly as it quite clearly states the complainants found out from a non- Muslim source. Maybe it was just a regular soldier who thought hang on a sec, I don't NEED tarted up buildings to improve my effectiveness. Anyway, I wonder how much of our money it cost. Couldn't it have been more wisely spent in some way to better protect our troops actually in the field of operations? I'm sure it could. Terrorism is the main enemy at present and religion is almost always at the core of that. The overwhelming terrorist threat (to us) is from Muslim extremists. That does NOT however make all Muslims the enemy. Your idiotic comments however suggest that you think they are. There is little hope for you. New enemies can thrive in such a paranoid environment as the heat is off them. For the record I find elements of Islam peaceful and with good intention just as I do with Christianity. However my over abiding impression of BOTH is that they are still essentially awful, backward, arrogant, mysogynistic, hypocritical, bloodthirsty religions and the world would be a much better place without both. DWilson

9:12am Fri 9 Apr 10

DWilson says...

However I am also fully aware that my closing comments in my last post are by their very nature extremely offensive to most Muslims.
So for those of you tempted to tar me with Daily Mailesque platitudes such as "do-gooder", "bleeding heart liberal", "PC brigade", "loony left" (yawn) take note: I do not duck out of offending ANYBODY if the situation warrants it even if I respect their opinions or beliefs. I can look a devout Muslim or Catholic in the eye and tell them I respect and defend their sense of faith and right to worship, but that essentially I think their religion stinks. Heck I'll even allow someone to get their prayer mat or Rosary beads out if they are guests in my house. What they make of me because of that is up to them.
So to all you Muslim hating losers out there, I dare to defend and offend.
However I am also fully aware that my closing comments in my last post are by their very nature extremely offensive to most Muslims. So for those of you tempted to tar me with Daily Mailesque platitudes such as "do-gooder", "bleeding heart liberal", "PC brigade", "loony left" (yawn) take note: I do not duck out of offending ANYBODY if the situation warrants it even if I respect their opinions or beliefs. I can look a devout Muslim or Catholic in the eye and tell them I respect and defend their sense of faith and right to worship, but that essentially I think their religion stinks. Heck I'll even allow someone to get their prayer mat or Rosary beads out if they are guests in my house. What they make of me because of that is up to them. So to all you Muslim hating losers out there, I dare to defend and offend. DWilson

9:45am Fri 9 Apr 10

Super steve says...

DWilson, Darlington says...
10:58pm Thu 8 Apr 10
This is a war against terrorism remember. Not Muslims.

No,This is a Muslim war of terror against judo christian western nations and cultures.
DWilson, Darlington says... 10:58pm Thu 8 Apr 10 This is a war against terrorism remember. Not Muslims. No,This is a Muslim war of terror against judo christian western nations and cultures. Super steve

10:01am Fri 9 Apr 10

BMD says...

I remember when the IRA was causing terrorist acts on the U.K. mainland; soldiers were training in conditions that resembled the local terrain which included churches.
.
Why has the British public, British government and now the MOD developed a jelly fish spine and succumbed to the whinging and whining of a muslim fundamental group.
.
We need a leader with as much backbone as Kevin Rudd (Australian Prime Minister) Quotes: "You are always free to leave."
I remember when the IRA was causing terrorist acts on the U.K. mainland; soldiers were training in conditions that resembled the local terrain which included churches. . Why has the British public, British government and now the MOD developed a jelly fish spine and succumbed to the whinging and whining of a muslim fundamental group. . We need a leader with as much backbone as Kevin Rudd (Australian Prime Minister) Quotes: "You are always free to leave." BMD

10:22am Fri 9 Apr 10

Big Dave says...

...excellent comments DWilson. balanced, thought out, researched and unbiaised. Then you get Steve's comments- the complete opposite, as normal. I bet his heart beats faster every time he sees and Arab.
...excellent comments DWilson. balanced, thought out, researched and unbiaised. Then you get Steve's comments- the complete opposite, as normal. I bet his heart beats faster every time he sees and Arab. Big Dave

10:28am Fri 9 Apr 10

Big Dave says...

...and Senor, you still never said which "very educated" person told you we'd be an Islamic state. Like DWilson, I'm also against any religion ramming its beliefs down my throat- there was enough enforced prayers during my school time. Islam is no better or worse than any other- the fundamentalists are beyond reasoning with. What's worth remembering is that the fundamentalists are a very small minority giving the rest a bad name and ammunition to the little Englanders
...and Senor, you still never said which "very educated" person told you we'd be an Islamic state. Like DWilson, I'm also against any religion ramming its beliefs down my throat- there was enough enforced prayers during my school time. Islam is no better or worse than any other- the fundamentalists are beyond reasoning with. What's worth remembering is that the fundamentalists are a very small minority giving the rest a bad name and ammunition to the little Englanders Big Dave

11:15am Fri 9 Apr 10

DWilson says...

Steve you are quite right in what you say that Muslim extremists have for some time carried out a war of terrorism against Judo-Christian nations. I don't dispute that.
But hang on a second, did not Messrs Powell and Bush and Cheney make reference to "acts of war" and declare a "war on terror"? Don't forget Blair's pledge to stand "shoulder to shoulder". In it's basest terms Steve BOTH sides are very much willingly engaged in this war now so please do not attempt to contradict me
Steve you are quite right in what you say that Muslim extremists have for some time carried out a war of terrorism against Judo-Christian nations. I don't dispute that. But hang on a second, did not Messrs Powell and Bush and Cheney make reference to "acts of war" and declare a "war on terror"? Don't forget Blair's pledge to stand "shoulder to shoulder". In it's basest terms Steve BOTH sides are very much willingly engaged in this war now so please do not attempt to contradict me DWilson

11:48am Fri 9 Apr 10

BMD says...

Getting back to the article, It has been assumed by Turki Aba-Alala, president of Newcastle Islamic Society, Ali Luft, from the Muslim Federation of Cleveland and Mohammed Saleem Khan, chief executive of the Bradford council for Mosques that these structures were a target, what if they were a Non-Target, something that must not be fired upon. Are these prominent muslim leaders suggesting all buildings are now open targets?
.
Maybe a inquiry to the MOD would have been more appropriate than a phone call to the media.
Getting back to the article, It has been assumed by Turki Aba-Alala, president of Newcastle Islamic Society, Ali Luft, from the Muslim Federation of Cleveland and Mohammed Saleem Khan, chief executive of the Bradford council for Mosques that these structures were a target, what if they were a Non-Target, something that must not be fired upon. Are these prominent muslim leaders suggesting all buildings are now open targets? . Maybe a inquiry to the MOD would have been more appropriate than a phone call to the media. BMD

12:07pm Fri 9 Apr 10

DWilson says...

Because a genuine denial coupled with an apology for any offence is very simple but the MoD have not denied it. They have issued a genuine sincere apology instead and good on them.
I am going to retract my earlier comment about expense because on reflection I am happy for more of my taxes to help forces train in an environment which replicates where they are deployed. It's just that no matter how hard you try, North Yorkshire cannot currently replicate Helmand. I'd rather foot a heftier bill to send them somewhere like Arizona or The Mojave where they could PROPERLY acclimatise.
Because a genuine denial coupled with an apology for any offence is very simple but the MoD have not denied it. They have issued a genuine sincere apology instead and good on them. I am going to retract my earlier comment about expense because on reflection I am happy for more of my taxes to help forces train in an environment which replicates where they are deployed. It's just that no matter how hard you try, North Yorkshire cannot currently replicate Helmand. I'd rather foot a heftier bill to send them somewhere like Arizona or The Mojave where they could PROPERLY acclimatise. DWilson

12:38pm Fri 9 Apr 10

Super steve says...

DWilson wrote:
Steve you are quite right in what you say that Muslim extremists have for some time carried out a war of terrorism against Judo-Christian nations. I don't dispute that. But hang on a second, did not Messrs Powell and Bush and Cheney make reference to "acts of war" and declare a "war on terror"? Don't forget Blair's pledge to stand "shoulder to shoulder". In it's basest terms Steve BOTH sides are very much willingly engaged in this war now so please do not attempt to contradict me
I would not attempt to contradict you Sir, but simply point out that the current wave of Islamic extremism by the muslim world is generally judged to have start with the 1984 attempt by the Islamists to blow up the WTC, Long before Blair or Shrub were in office.

However thanks to the PC MC diversity supporting loony left we are fighting for our very existance with one hand tied behind our backs.
[quote][p][bold]DWilson[/bold] wrote: Steve you are quite right in what you say that Muslim extremists have for some time carried out a war of terrorism against Judo-Christian nations. I don't dispute that. But hang on a second, did not Messrs Powell and Bush and Cheney make reference to "acts of war" and declare a "war on terror"? Don't forget Blair's pledge to stand "shoulder to shoulder". In it's basest terms Steve BOTH sides are very much willingly engaged in this war now so please do not attempt to contradict me[/p][/quote]I would not attempt to contradict you Sir, but simply point out that the current wave of Islamic extremism by the muslim world is generally judged to have start with the 1984 attempt by the Islamists to blow up the WTC, Long before Blair or Shrub were in office. However thanks to the PC MC diversity supporting loony left we are fighting for our very existance with one hand tied behind our backs. Super steve

1:25pm Fri 9 Apr 10

DWilson says...

1984? I thought it was '94.
Regardless my friend, I would argue that (Palestinian situation aside), Islamic extremism has it's roots in the CIA/UK sponsored overthrow of Iran's first democratically elected Leader in 1953 which led to The Shah being installed. The understandable bad feeling from that was capitalised upon by extremists and ultimately led to the Islamic Revolution in that country with an axe to grind against the West. Ripples felt ever since.

But Super-Steve I digress. If you have one hand tied behind you back, get your undies on over your leggings, and fly out cape billowing in the wind with your free hand thrust forward and save us all!!!!
1984? I thought it was '94. Regardless my friend, I would argue that (Palestinian situation aside), Islamic extremism has it's roots in the CIA/UK sponsored overthrow of Iran's first democratically elected Leader in 1953 which led to The Shah being installed. The understandable bad feeling from that was capitalised upon by extremists and ultimately led to the Islamic Revolution in that country with an axe to grind against the West. Ripples felt ever since. But Super-Steve I digress. If you have one hand tied behind you back, get your undies on over your leggings, and fly out cape billowing in the wind with your free hand thrust forward and save us all!!!! DWilson

4:19pm Fri 9 Apr 10

Super steve says...

DWilson wrote:
1984? I thought it was '94. Regardless my friend, I would argue that (Palestinian situation aside), Islamic extremism has it's roots in the CIA/UK sponsored overthrow of Iran's first democratically elected Leader in 1953 which led to The Shah being installed. The understandable bad feeling from that was capitalised upon by extremists and ultimately led to the Islamic Revolution in that country with an axe to grind against the West. Ripples felt ever since. But Super-Steve I digress. If you have one hand tied behind you back, get your undies on over your leggings, and fly out cape billowing in the wind with your free hand thrust forward and save us all!!!!
Islamic expansionism and extremism goes back over 700 years, about the time they first tried to conquer Europe.

Nice of you to make light about the sacrifice our troops are making in Afghanistan not only fighting Islamists, but apologists back home.

I did my fighting bit in Northern Ireland many years ago, but infortunately this Labour government decided to surrender to the IRA for no possible benefit cept sound bites
[quote][p][bold]DWilson[/bold] wrote: 1984? I thought it was '94. Regardless my friend, I would argue that (Palestinian situation aside), Islamic extremism has it's roots in the CIA/UK sponsored overthrow of Iran's first democratically elected Leader in 1953 which led to The Shah being installed. The understandable bad feeling from that was capitalised upon by extremists and ultimately led to the Islamic Revolution in that country with an axe to grind against the West. Ripples felt ever since. But Super-Steve I digress. If you have one hand tied behind you back, get your undies on over your leggings, and fly out cape billowing in the wind with your free hand thrust forward and save us all!!!![/p][/quote]Islamic expansionism and extremism goes back over 700 years, about the time they first tried to conquer Europe. Nice of you to make light about the sacrifice our troops are making in Afghanistan not only fighting Islamists, but apologists back home. I did my fighting bit in Northern Ireland many years ago, but infortunately this Labour government decided to surrender to the IRA for no possible benefit cept sound bites Super steve

5:21pm Fri 9 Apr 10

stevegg says...

The islamic community do them selve no favours when objecting to trivial things such as this, we always seem to have to have toleration and respect for them whilst they have none for people of other faiths. You are playing into the far rights hands by this sensastionalism. If it comes down to choosing between the safety of our armed forces and respecting the muslim faith, there is only ever going to be one winner! Armed forces every time.
The islamic community do them selve no favours when objecting to trivial things such as this, we always seem to have to have toleration and respect for them whilst they have none for people of other faiths. You are playing into the far rights hands by this sensastionalism. If it comes down to choosing between the safety of our armed forces and respecting the muslim faith, there is only ever going to be one winner! Armed forces every time. stevegg

5:46pm Fri 9 Apr 10

cj-dog says...

The one thing that this debate has highlighted is that some of you people are against minority muslim groups dictating what British people can do in Britain - and those who are part of the left-wing, open-door, PC movement who have a stash of white flags under their beds and practice apologising in several asian dialects in preparation for their capitulation.
The one thing that this debate has highlighted is that some of you people are against minority muslim groups dictating what British people can do in Britain - and those who are part of the left-wing, open-door, PC movement who have a stash of white flags under their beds and practice apologising in several asian dialects in preparation for their capitulation. cj-dog

5:56pm Fri 9 Apr 10

CTRILEY says...

Last nght a rep. of the Muslim community openly supported the use of such mockups as a means to train soldiers so that innocent people don't get killed.

So why don't Muslims do themselves a favour and either grow a thicker skin or simply grow up?
Last nght a rep. of the Muslim community openly supported the use of such mockups as a means to train soldiers so that innocent people don't get killed. So why don't Muslims do themselves a favour and either grow a thicker skin or simply grow up? CTRILEY

6:04pm Fri 9 Apr 10

DWilson says...

Hang on a sec Steve. First you say it dates back to first attempt to blow up WTC and then you say it goes back over 700 years? My reference point relates to one of the factors leading to current wave of Islamic extremism. If we dig deeper, I think you will find we ought to be in agreement that no one issue over past 10, 50, 100, 1000 years has been "the spark" so to speak. I for one would prefer to listen to more eminent historians than us debate which event reverberated through history more.

I am not making light of sacrifice of our troops out there, at least one cousin is currently deployed there and his role is not a cosy one. The only thing I made light of was your username. They are mutually exclusive issues.

As for NI. Steve I appreciate you are particularly well informed on this matter and there is a lot of weight behind your opinions. You are one of the seemingly few who recognise that although there were/are huge divides between religious groups there, the underlying reasons and protagonists are overtly political rather than religious. However the whole process was kicked off by Major and although it's a bitter pill to swallow that there are people walking free, I am grateful there have been no more Warringtons, Hyde Parks or Pub bombings. I was pleased to see McGuinness utterly condemn the actions of the last ditch rebels without a cause of the Real and Continuity IRA. Thank you for your service
Hang on a sec Steve. First you say it dates back to first attempt to blow up WTC and then you say it goes back over 700 years? My reference point relates to one of the factors leading to current wave of Islamic extremism. If we dig deeper, I think you will find we ought to be in agreement that no one issue over past 10, 50, 100, 1000 years has been "the spark" so to speak. I for one would prefer to listen to more eminent historians than us debate which event reverberated through history more. I am not making light of sacrifice of our troops out there, at least one cousin is currently deployed there and his role is not a cosy one. The only thing I made light of was your username. They are mutually exclusive issues. As for NI. Steve I appreciate you are particularly well informed on this matter and there is a lot of weight behind your opinions. You are one of the seemingly few who recognise that although there were/are huge divides between religious groups there, the underlying reasons and protagonists are overtly political rather than religious. However the whole process was kicked off by Major and although it's a bitter pill to swallow that there are people walking free, I am grateful there have been no more Warringtons, Hyde Parks or Pub bombings. I was pleased to see McGuinness utterly condemn the actions of the last ditch rebels without a cause of the Real and Continuity IRA. Thank you for your service DWilson

8:06pm Fri 9 Apr 10

*shakes head slowly* says...

I love a happy ending!!!!
LOL!!!
I love a happy ending!!!! LOL!!! *shakes head slowly*

10:58am Sat 10 Apr 10

Big Dave says...

...You'll have to forgive Steve D, he contradicts himself all the time. Basically, if he like you (armed forces=good), then the thought that a soldier might have said "Hang on a minute, I think shooting at replica mosques might be a bit inflammatory") won't cross his mind. If he doesn't and his little Englander complex is allowed to run free, he'll spout all sort of **** without any evidence or substantiation at all and convince himself its true. I'm beginning to think he must have gotten a speeding ticket from a Muslim cop the way he goes on.
...You'll have to forgive Steve D, he contradicts himself all the time. Basically, if he like you (armed forces=good), then the thought that a soldier might have said "Hang on a minute, I think shooting at replica mosques might be a bit inflammatory") won't cross his mind. If he doesn't and his little Englander complex is allowed to run free, he'll spout all sort of **** without any evidence or substantiation at all and convince himself its true. I'm beginning to think he must have gotten a speeding ticket from a Muslim cop the way he goes on. Big Dave

12:33pm Sun 11 Apr 10

Herb12 says...

It is great to see such quality reporting on such a controversial issue. Many newspapers would stray away from such topics. This no doubt confirms the Northern's Eco as 7th best Newspaper for Integrity in England as cited by Newspaper Integrity.

http://www.newspaper
integrity.com/paper.
php?id=11353
It is great to see such quality reporting on such a controversial issue. Many newspapers would stray away from such topics. This no doubt confirms the Northern's Eco as 7th best Newspaper for Integrity in England as cited by Newspaper Integrity. http://www.newspaper integrity.com/paper. php?id=11353 Herb12

9:15am Tue 13 Apr 10

lovedurham says...

I wouldnt class the Echo as 7th best newspaper in Darlington, let alone 7th best in England
I wouldnt class the Echo as 7th best newspaper in Darlington, let alone 7th best in England lovedurham

11:46am Tue 13 Apr 10

melwilson says...

yet you're still reading it lovedurham ....
yet you're still reading it lovedurham .... melwilson

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