Pickles accused of waging war on North-East councils

7:00am Thursday 20th December 2012 in News Photograph of the Author By Robert Merrick, Parliamentary Correspondent

Eric Pickles Eric Pickles

MINISTERS were accused last night of again waging war on North-East councils with "unfair" cuts - while authorities in leafy parts of the South escape the agony.

The overall spending power of North-East town halls will be slashed by up to 2.2 per cent next year and by a crushing five per cent-plus in most areas in 2014-15, the government announced.

The total blow for County Durham will be around £30m on the chosen measure of 'spending power', which includes council tax and other income, rather than simply government grants.

Yet, Tory-run West Oxfordshire - David Cameron's local council - is among many in the South that will enjoy a spending rise in 2013-14 and escape with just a small cut the following year.

In North Yorkshire, Hambleton, Richmondshire and Ryedale authorities will all have more to spend next year - and be forced to cut far less than North-East councils in 2014-15.

Last night, Simon Henig, Durham's Labour leader, condemned the "totally unfair" settlement, warning: "It's likely there will have to be a further round of reductions to services."

Mr Henig pointed out the county council already had to find £25m of cuts for next year, saying: "We have done our best to protect frontline services, but it becomes more and more difficult to do so.

"We have to ask why all councils in the North-East have reductions, while many in the South will have increases of three or four per cent next year?

It is totally unfair."

And Bill Dixon, Labour leader of Darlington Borough Council, warned of a £20m hit to its budget, adding: "There will be massive hits to services that we are currently running - and some will not be able to survive."

The cuts come despite ministers' repeated pledges to stabilise budgets for 2013-14, because of the uncertainties surrounding a complicated shake-up of business rates.

Eric Pickles, the Communities Secretary, attempted to conceal the scale of the pain by refusing to release the figures for 2014-15, but The Northern Echo was able to obtain them form other sources.

And, in the Commons, Mr Pickles turned on the likes of Middlesbrough Mayor Ray Mallon, when he attacked those council leaders who "have shamefully predicted riots on the streets".

He insisted: "Nostradamus needn't worry. Concerns that the poorest councils, or those in the North, would suffer disproportionately are well wide of the mark."

Last year, Mr Mallon warned of Cairo-style protests in suffering towns and cities, saying: "There is a simmering discontent and I think you can feel it on the street now."

The figures, seen by The Northern Echo, reveal slashing of spending power in Darlington (down 0.3 per cent and 4.4 per cent), Hartlepool (2.2 per cent and five per cent), Middlesbrough (0.7 per cent and 5.8 per cent) and Stockton-on-Tees (1.8 per cent and 4.3 per cent).

Some leaders have set out a grim future when local councils will have no money to do anything other than provide care for the vulnerable and collect the rubbish.

But Mr Pickles insisted councils must "keep doing their bit" to plug the gaping hole in Britain's finances - and challenged all authorities to freeze council tax next year.

Pointing to £450m set aside to help town halls hold down bills, he told MPs: "All councils have a moral duty to freeze council tax. It doubled under Labour, it became unsustainable. We've cut it in real terms."

But they have been offered a grant equal to just a one per cent rise in council tax - far below the 2.7 per cent inflation rate - which points to further service cuts, where any authority freezes bills.

Comments (62)

10:42am Thu 20 Dec 12

Idontknowaboutyoubut says...

It's all very well for Pickles to talk very glibly about having to make cuts.To him,and his ilk,it's all just figures on a screen,but this is really about people,and the devastating effect some cuts will have on the most vulnerable of society.The official line seems to be,blame the councils for making the wrong cuts,but they have had these draconian measures forced upon them, and have to make hard choices.The sad fact is that somewhere,some lonely soul will die as an indirect result of the coalition s austerity measures.Too deep,too soon,and all in the name of political ideology.Shamefull..
.!!!
It's all very well for Pickles to talk very glibly about having to make cuts.To him,and his ilk,it's all just figures on a screen,but this is really about people,and the devastating effect some cuts will have on the most vulnerable of society.The official line seems to be,blame the councils for making the wrong cuts,but they have had these draconian measures forced upon them, and have to make hard choices.The sad fact is that somewhere,some lonely soul will die as an indirect result of the coalition s austerity measures.Too deep,too soon,and all in the name of political ideology.Shamefull.. .!!! Idontknowaboutyoubut

11:17am Thu 20 Dec 12

st-george1 says...

It all sounds like misplaced tribal passions here, typical Labour speak comes to mind and as usual its seems to be a case of the NE Councils waging war on the working-taxpayers whilst ignoring the overstaffing that costs 3 times more than many others and lots of waste that needs urgent pruning … too many people idling, taking twice as long to do a job, out of sight and without supervision , prepared to perjure themselves in order to get what they want … it’s a big problem.
Of course, it is easier for the personal-wealth-cons
cious MPs and Council Leaders to engage in what many will consider to be bigoted, inciting class wars that will have much further-reaching consequences, but as in life that’s the cost of failure and incompetence, surely !
It all sounds like misplaced tribal passions here, typical Labour speak comes to mind and as usual its seems to be a case of the NE Councils waging war on the working-taxpayers whilst ignoring the overstaffing that costs 3 times more than many others and lots of waste that needs urgent pruning … too many people idling, taking twice as long to do a job, out of sight and without supervision , prepared to perjure themselves in order to get what they want … it’s a big problem. Of course, it is easier for the personal-wealth-cons cious MPs and Council Leaders to engage in what many will consider to be bigoted, inciting class wars that will have much further-reaching consequences, but as in life that’s the cost of failure and incompetence, surely ! st-george1

12:01pm Thu 20 Dec 12

loonyleft says...

George,why are councils down south who vote tory not getting the same cuts,answer revenge on councils who are not tory which is political blackmail to try and force people to vote tory,backed up by people like you doing the tories dirty work on blogs like this.
George,why are councils down south who vote tory not getting the same cuts,answer revenge on councils who are not tory which is political blackmail to try and force people to vote tory,backed up by people like you doing the tories dirty work on blogs like this. loonyleft

12:39pm Thu 20 Dec 12

loan_star says...

loonyleft wrote:
George,why are councils down south who vote tory not getting the same cuts,answer revenge on councils who are not tory which is political blackmail to try and force people to vote tory,backed up by people like you doing the tories dirty work on blogs like this.
Probably because they are run more efficently anyway?
[quote][p][bold]loonyleft[/bold] wrote: George,why are councils down south who vote tory not getting the same cuts,answer revenge on councils who are not tory which is political blackmail to try and force people to vote tory,backed up by people like you doing the tories dirty work on blogs like this.[/p][/quote]Probably because they are run more efficently anyway? loan_star

1:42pm Thu 20 Dec 12

David Lacey says...

The cuts still leave North East councils with more money per head of population that the so-called leafy south.
The cuts still leave North East councils with more money per head of population that the so-called leafy south. David Lacey

1:57pm Thu 20 Dec 12

oliviaden6 says...

It's not the cuts that are damaging, If the councillor a and the cronies took pay cuts and stopped wasting OUR money on half baked schemes we might be in a better position and the cuts would not hurt so much. Under the freedom of information act just how much are the council officials really on and what are their packages????
It's not the cuts that are damaging, If the councillor a and the cronies took pay cuts and stopped wasting OUR money on half baked schemes we might be in a better position and the cuts would not hurt so much. Under the freedom of information act just how much are the council officials really on and what are their packages???? oliviaden6

2:04pm Thu 20 Dec 12

stewboss says...

loan_star wrote:
loonyleft wrote:
George,why are councils down south who vote tory not getting the same cuts,answer revenge on councils who are not tory which is political blackmail to try and force people to vote tory,backed up by people like you doing the tories dirty work on blogs like this.
Probably because they are run more efficently anyway?
It's high time that people on both sides of the argument backed up their statements with factual examples.

In what way are Labour councils throwing away left, right and centre and in what way are Tory councils doing the job more efficiently, effectively and economically.
[quote][p][bold]loan_star[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]loonyleft[/bold] wrote: George,why are councils down south who vote tory not getting the same cuts,answer revenge on councils who are not tory which is political blackmail to try and force people to vote tory,backed up by people like you doing the tories dirty work on blogs like this.[/p][/quote]Probably because they are run more efficently anyway?[/p][/quote]It's high time that people on both sides of the argument backed up their statements with factual examples. In what way are Labour councils throwing away left, right and centre and in what way are Tory councils doing the job more efficiently, effectively and economically. stewboss

2:52pm Thu 20 Dec 12

NickWill says...

If proof were needed that we're not all in this together then this it. This is a move calculated to divisive and one that highlights that web are living in a two-tier state.
If proof were needed that we're not all in this together then this it. This is a move calculated to divisive and one that highlights that web are living in a two-tier state. NickWill

3:17pm Thu 20 Dec 12

fracker says...

George, Tory councils are making more stringent cuts than labour councils,libraries, citizen advise centre's services for old people are all being cut completely,if that is what you call efficient.If the tories are so efficient then why did they not win the election outright and why are they going to lose the next election?
George, Tory councils are making more stringent cuts than labour councils,libraries, citizen advise centre's services for old people are all being cut completely,if that is what you call efficient.If the tories are so efficient then why did they not win the election outright and why are they going to lose the next election? fracker

4:14pm Thu 20 Dec 12

stevegg says...

I know a number of people who work for the council, having worked there myself a decade ago, and can tell you despite all the cuts, its the ingrained culture of waste, incompetence, being rewarded for failure, ineffeciency, overstaffing, overspending and unaccountability that is still in operation thats mostly to blame. Despite all the hype the councils refuse to streamline and become more accountable with public money, they have only one solution in rare times of desperation - increase council tax. They refuse to touch huge reserves that they all sit on and are determined to sacrifice all else to maintain their gold plated pay and conditions and little empires. The overpaid/underworked executives and managers want you to believe that its the governments fault and they have no choice but to cut services as they have slashed administrative costs already to the bone and it appears you all believe this lie! Wake up and demand culture change to protect services. Funny how the police with a 20% cut are managing to maintain the same level of service as before the cuts, but councils with almost half the level of cuts are supposedly on their knees???
I know a number of people who work for the council, having worked there myself a decade ago, and can tell you despite all the cuts, its the ingrained culture of waste, incompetence, being rewarded for failure, ineffeciency, overstaffing, overspending and unaccountability that is still in operation thats mostly to blame. Despite all the hype the councils refuse to streamline and become more accountable with public money, they have only one solution in rare times of desperation - increase council tax. They refuse to touch huge reserves that they all sit on and are determined to sacrifice all else to maintain their gold plated pay and conditions and little empires. The overpaid/underworked executives and managers want you to believe that its the governments fault and they have no choice but to cut services as they have slashed administrative costs already to the bone and it appears you all believe this lie! Wake up and demand culture change to protect services. Funny how the police with a 20% cut are managing to maintain the same level of service as before the cuts, but councils with almost half the level of cuts are supposedly on their knees??? stevegg

4:50pm Thu 20 Dec 12

Lifetime Townie says...

Pickles is on the side of the public, there are many examples of waste in the council spending that the council refuse to recognise. Many daft council project that are forced onto the public account for most of it as well as the usual gross inefficiencies in the town halls. It's time the councils woke up to these facts and put their houses in order because it's us council tax payers who are fed up of picking up the tabs.
Pickles is on the side of the public, there are many examples of waste in the council spending that the council refuse to recognise. Many daft council project that are forced onto the public account for most of it as well as the usual gross inefficiencies in the town halls. It's time the councils woke up to these facts and put their houses in order because it's us council tax payers who are fed up of picking up the tabs. Lifetime Townie

5:53pm Thu 20 Dec 12

loan_star says...

stewboss wrote:
loan_star wrote:
loonyleft wrote:
George,why are councils down south who vote tory not getting the same cuts,answer revenge on councils who are not tory which is political blackmail to try and force people to vote tory,backed up by people like you doing the tories dirty work on blogs like this.
Probably because they are run more efficently anyway?
It's high time that people on both sides of the argument backed up their statements with factual examples.

In what way are Labour councils throwing away left, right and centre and in what way are Tory councils doing the job more efficiently, effectively and economically.
I would have thought that was obvious! The councils that arent having to cut as much or at all, must have been making better use of the money they raised in council tax.
As for the constant complaints about savage cuts, a Labour government would have had to find the same savings, just over a longer period of time. Whats better, get it done and over with or drag it out even longer?
Despite having a couple of years to come up with a definitive alternative we have yet to hear anything other than waffle from Balls and Milliband.
[quote][p][bold]stewboss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]loan_star[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]loonyleft[/bold] wrote: George,why are councils down south who vote tory not getting the same cuts,answer revenge on councils who are not tory which is political blackmail to try and force people to vote tory,backed up by people like you doing the tories dirty work on blogs like this.[/p][/quote]Probably because they are run more efficently anyway?[/p][/quote]It's high time that people on both sides of the argument backed up their statements with factual examples. In what way are Labour councils throwing away left, right and centre and in what way are Tory councils doing the job more efficiently, effectively and economically.[/p][/quote]I would have thought that was obvious! The councils that arent having to cut as much or at all, must have been making better use of the money they raised in council tax. As for the constant complaints about savage cuts, a Labour government would have had to find the same savings, just over a longer period of time. Whats better, get it done and over with or drag it out even longer? Despite having a couple of years to come up with a definitive alternative we have yet to hear anything other than waffle from Balls and Milliband. loan_star

6:32pm Thu 20 Dec 12

fracker says...

LONE STAR, Tory councils have been cutting more services than labour ones,if that is whats called efficiency we don't need it. I know some cowardly people only think about saving their own skins, but labour supporters however inefficient care about it's fellow citizens and not just care about their bank balance like tories.
LONE STAR, Tory councils have been cutting more services than labour ones,if that is whats called efficiency we don't need it. I know some cowardly people only think about saving their own skins, but labour supporters however inefficient care about it's fellow citizens and not just care about their bank balance like tories. fracker

7:49pm Thu 20 Dec 12

Davy Crocket says...

Labour trashed this country and it's payback time. The only shame is that it's the Conservative Party who are having to clean up the mess. Blaming them is like shooting the messenger.
Labour trashed this country and it's payback time. The only shame is that it's the Conservative Party who are having to clean up the mess. Blaming them is like shooting the messenger. Davy Crocket

7:55pm Thu 20 Dec 12

oliviaden6 says...

Reference davy Crocket
I agree totally say it as it is! If Labour get in again they will do the same thing all over again its the blind leading the blind.
what is going to be left for our children and grandchildren NOTHING but DEBTS
and a country ruined by idiots and self deprecating idiots????
Reference davy Crocket I agree totally say it as it is! If Labour get in again they will do the same thing all over again its the blind leading the blind. what is going to be left for our children and grandchildren NOTHING but DEBTS and a country ruined by idiots and self deprecating idiots???? oliviaden6

8:54pm Thu 20 Dec 12

loonyleft says...

The banks wrecked this country,and their servants in the tory party can't do anything without their sayso.
The banks wrecked this country,and their servants in the tory party can't do anything without their sayso. loonyleft

1:44pm Fri 21 Dec 12

David Lacey says...

"a country ruined by idiots and self deprecating idiots"
.
Or Labour supporters as they are more commonly known.
"a country ruined by idiots and self deprecating idiots" . Or Labour supporters as they are more commonly known. David Lacey

2:20pm Fri 21 Dec 12

st-george1 says...

loonyleft wrote:
George,why are councils down south who vote tory not getting the same cuts,answer revenge on councils who are not tory which is political blackmail to try and force people to vote tory,backed up by people like you doing the tories dirty work on blogs like this.
I use to know someone just like you, two celeb characters, Jonathan Ross and Russell Brand and a failed, disgraced politician all full of hatred, all bullying lefties and suppressors of the truth … NEVER accepting another persons opinion, NEVER apologising for believing they were right at the time, DESPITE usually BEING WRONG … was also one of the Labour Party and multi-millionaire Anthony BLIAR’s unacceptable, undying legacies … now that’s political blackmail and it makes one want to weep !
Time to get real loonyleft you can’t keep blaming the Coalition Government AFTER the 13 long disastrous years of Labour neglect all over the UK’s Labour heartlands … maybe this time it’s the millionaire new boy Miliband’s fault !
[quote][p][bold]loonyleft[/bold] wrote: George,why are councils down south who vote tory not getting the same cuts,answer revenge on councils who are not tory which is political blackmail to try and force people to vote tory,backed up by people like you doing the tories dirty work on blogs like this.[/p][/quote]I use to know someone just like you, two celeb characters, Jonathan Ross and Russell Brand and a failed, disgraced politician all full of hatred, all bullying lefties and suppressors of the truth … NEVER accepting another persons opinion, NEVER apologising for believing they were right at the time, DESPITE usually BEING WRONG … was also one of the Labour Party and multi-millionaire Anthony BLIAR’s unacceptable, undying legacies … now that’s political blackmail and it makes one want to weep ! Time to get real loonyleft you can’t keep blaming the Coalition Government AFTER the 13 long disastrous years of Labour neglect all over the UK’s Labour heartlands … maybe this time it’s the millionaire new boy Miliband’s fault ! st-george1

2:38pm Fri 21 Dec 12

loonyleft says...

George, I, don't accept opinions that are wrong, bullying,suppressing the truth,tories are well versed in these arts.The people on here like you who talk about efficiencies in council spending,what you mean is i don't care if people suffer if there are cuts to council services,i begrudge paying my council tax,and i want to pay less that's what i call bullying,and selfish too.
George, I, don't accept opinions that are wrong, bullying,suppressing the truth,tories are well versed in these arts.The people on here like you who talk about efficiencies in council spending,what you mean is i don't care if people suffer if there are cuts to council services,i begrudge paying my council tax,and i want to pay less that's what i call bullying,and selfish too. loonyleft

4:10pm Fri 21 Dec 12

David Lacey says...

Thank you St. George. Perfectly put.
Thank you St. George. Perfectly put. David Lacey

5:33pm Fri 21 Dec 12

loonyleft says...

perfectly put,totally wrong.
perfectly put,totally wrong. loonyleft

5:33pm Fri 21 Dec 12

loonyleft says...

perfectly put,totally wrong.
perfectly put,totally wrong. loonyleft

5:52pm Fri 21 Dec 12

loan_star says...

loonyleft wrote:
George, I, don't accept opinions that are wrong, bullying,suppressing the truth,tories are well versed in these arts.The people on here like you who talk about efficiencies in council spending,what you mean is i don't care if people suffer if there are cuts to council services,i begrudge paying my council tax,and i want to pay less that's what i call bullying,and selfish too.
Bullying, suppressing the truth? Driving an innocent man to suicide?

Who was well versed in this art? Tony Blair, Labour PM and his WMD / illegal war fiasco
[quote][p][bold]loonyleft[/bold] wrote: George, I, don't accept opinions that are wrong, bullying,suppressing the truth,tories are well versed in these arts.The people on here like you who talk about efficiencies in council spending,what you mean is i don't care if people suffer if there are cuts to council services,i begrudge paying my council tax,and i want to pay less that's what i call bullying,and selfish too.[/p][/quote]Bullying, suppressing the truth? Driving an innocent man to suicide? Who was well versed in this art? Tony Blair, Labour PM and his WMD / illegal war fiasco loan_star

8:50pm Fri 21 Dec 12

loonyleft says...

Do you mean the war that was voted for by a majority of tory mps,or do youmean the disabled people bullied and harried to their deaths by the present government,or do you mean the disabled ex servicemen cheated out of their benefits or the disabled athletes cheated out of their benefits,or the disabled workers kicked on to the dole to get back the money the bankers lost,do you want me to go on,when it comes to bullying the tories can't be beat.
Do you mean the war that was voted for by a majority of tory mps,or do youmean the disabled people bullied and harried to their deaths by the present government,or do you mean the disabled ex servicemen cheated out of their benefits or the disabled athletes cheated out of their benefits,or the disabled workers kicked on to the dole to get back the money the bankers lost,do you want me to go on,when it comes to bullying the tories can't be beat. loonyleft

12:37am Sat 22 Dec 12

Blankface says...

I don't really give a toss about politics but what I do know is that it was the banks fault for the sugar that we in.
Oliviaden6 says the Labour Party will do the same again, no they won't, David Lacey please go to kip, ukip and finally George says after the 13 long
Disastrous years of labour neglect. So come on George tell me apart from the financial situation caused by the banks what else was disastrous about labours rule, you also say loony can't keep blaming the coalition but the coalition keeps blaming labour for the crap that they impose on us.
I don't really give a toss about politics but what I do know is that it was the banks fault for the sugar that we in. Oliviaden6 says the Labour Party will do the same again, no they won't, David Lacey please go to kip, ukip and finally George says after the 13 long Disastrous years of labour neglect. So come on George tell me apart from the financial situation caused by the banks what else was disastrous about labours rule, you also say loony can't keep blaming the coalition but the coalition keeps blaming labour for the crap that they impose on us. Blankface

8:09am Sat 22 Dec 12

stangray@btinternet.com says...

Pickles is just doing what that witch Thatcher did when she was in power hammering the working men and women of this country and then looking after her rich friends.
The amount of damage she did namely to the North East was disgraceful and she should have been shot at birth
Pickles is just doing what that witch Thatcher did when she was in power hammering the working men and women of this country and then looking after her rich friends. The amount of damage she did namely to the North East was disgraceful and she should have been shot at birth stangray@btinternet.com

9:43am Sat 22 Dec 12

johnny_p says...

stangray@btinternet.
com wrote:
Pickles is just doing what that witch Thatcher did when she was in power hammering the working men and women of this country and then looking after her rich friends.
The amount of damage she did namely to the North East was disgraceful and she should have been shot at birth
Oooooh dear! Think you've got anger issues going on there.

Still reminds me why I must vote Labour in future. Love the way they're "down with the common man". David Milliband, Tony Bliar and John Prescott- I notice how they live in little terraced houses, cycle to work and holiday in Blackpool. Unlike those "nasty", "rich" Tories eh?
[quote][p][bold]stangray@btinternet. com[/bold] wrote: Pickles is just doing what that witch Thatcher did when she was in power hammering the working men and women of this country and then looking after her rich friends. The amount of damage she did namely to the North East was disgraceful and she should have been shot at birth[/p][/quote]Oooooh dear! Think you've got anger issues going on there. Still reminds me why I must vote Labour in future. Love the way they're "down with the common man". David Milliband, Tony Bliar and John Prescott- I notice how they live in little terraced houses, cycle to work and holiday in Blackpool. Unlike those "nasty", "rich" Tories eh? johnny_p

11:48am Sat 22 Dec 12

David Lacey says...

Johnny - interesting that a left winger supports the murder of children at this time of year and after the massacre in America.
Johnny - interesting that a left winger supports the murder of children at this time of year and after the massacre in America. David Lacey

12:21pm Sat 22 Dec 12

johnny_p says...

Bit shocked at the 'shot at birth" comment David. Still I'm not in the least bit shocked that none of the "usual suspects" have managed to comment on the Arthur Scargill article on this website. For once they're actually all lost for words.....
Bit shocked at the 'shot at birth" comment David. Still I'm not in the least bit shocked that none of the "usual suspects" have managed to comment on the Arthur Scargill article on this website. For once they're actually all lost for words..... johnny_p

2:20pm Sat 22 Dec 12

loan_star says...

loonyleft wrote:
Do you mean the war that was voted for by a majority of tory mps,or do youmean the disabled people bullied and harried to their deaths by the present government,or do you mean the disabled ex servicemen cheated out of their benefits or the disabled athletes cheated out of their benefits,or the disabled workers kicked on to the dole to get back the money the bankers lost,do you want me to go on,when it comes to bullying the tories can't be beat.
I would guess the opposition voted from the "facts" given to them by those in power at the time. The same war that caused the needless deaths and disabilities that Blair and Brown lied to the country about.
Loonyleft, you are just a typical labour loving hypocrite, you cant see the failings of your own beloved party because you are so obsessed with the failings of others.
[quote][p][bold]loonyleft[/bold] wrote: Do you mean the war that was voted for by a majority of tory mps,or do youmean the disabled people bullied and harried to their deaths by the present government,or do you mean the disabled ex servicemen cheated out of their benefits or the disabled athletes cheated out of their benefits,or the disabled workers kicked on to the dole to get back the money the bankers lost,do you want me to go on,when it comes to bullying the tories can't be beat.[/p][/quote]I would guess the opposition voted from the "facts" given to them by those in power at the time. The same war that caused the needless deaths and disabilities that Blair and Brown lied to the country about. Loonyleft, you are just a typical labour loving hypocrite, you cant see the failings of your own beloved party because you are so obsessed with the failings of others. loan_star

5:32pm Sat 22 Dec 12

mark.wilkinson says...

A war needs to be waged on all councils - not only those in the North East.

They're all in need of massive overhauling, top to bottom, root and branch.
A war needs to be waged on all councils - not only those in the North East. They're all in need of massive overhauling, top to bottom, root and branch. mark.wilkinson

6:45pm Sat 22 Dec 12

David Lacey says...

Thank you chaps. Your words are very welcome. In the North East we fight a continual battle against the evil forces of socialism. And despite being heavily outnumbered, I truly believe that one day the penny will drop and people will engage their brains before placing that cross in the box marked Labour.
.
It may not happen in 2015, but if we get 5 more years of Moribund and his bunch of deadbeats, even the most diehard left winger will have to admit that Labour is the most corrosive, evil force ever to be inflicted upon the poor, old, weak and vulnerable members of society.
Thank you chaps. Your words are very welcome. In the North East we fight a continual battle against the evil forces of socialism. And despite being heavily outnumbered, I truly believe that one day the penny will drop and people will engage their brains before placing that cross in the box marked Labour. . It may not happen in 2015, but if we get 5 more years of Moribund and his bunch of deadbeats, even the most diehard left winger will have to admit that Labour is the most corrosive, evil force ever to be inflicted upon the poor, old, weak and vulnerable members of society. David Lacey

6:55pm Sat 22 Dec 12

loonyleft says...

Evil forces of socialism, like pressing for yhe bankers who ruined this country to be punished -some hope there,or maybe it's evil complaining about disabled people being haried to their deaths by this government,or maybe it's evil pointing out that the government is making life harder for poor people instead of making tax evaders and rich people pay their way,yes very evil.
Evil forces of socialism, like pressing for yhe bankers who ruined this country to be punished -some hope there,or maybe it's evil complaining about disabled people being haried to their deaths by this government,or maybe it's evil pointing out that the government is making life harder for poor people instead of making tax evaders and rich people pay their way,yes very evil. loonyleft

7:06pm Sat 22 Dec 12

loonyleft says...

loan star,if the tories were only voting on the facts presented to them,how come labour mp's weren't fooled by these same "facts,so realy it's really the tory party who are the war mongers and the leadership at the time who are war criminals.Sorry old chap ,how does it feel voting for war criminals,the right are always more prone to commiting the country to war, because working class people just want to get on with their lives and they know they are first in line in every war.
loan star,if the tories were only voting on the facts presented to them,how come labour mp's weren't fooled by these same "facts,so realy it's really the tory party who are the war mongers and the leadership at the time who are war criminals.Sorry old chap ,how does it feel voting for war criminals,the right are always more prone to commiting the country to war, because working class people just want to get on with their lives and they know they are first in line in every war. loonyleft

7:14pm Sat 22 Dec 12

loonyleft says...

Johnny,why do right wingers think you have to be poor to support labour ,some people even when they become rich still care about their fellow human beings,others are corrupted by money and power ,the worst are those that were born to working class families,they despise and try to destroy any reminders of their origins.
Johnny,why do right wingers think you have to be poor to support labour ,some people even when they become rich still care about their fellow human beings,others are corrupted by money and power ,the worst are those that were born to working class families,they despise and try to destroy any reminders of their origins. loonyleft

1:24pm Sun 23 Dec 12

johnny_p says...

loonyleft wrote:
Johnny,why do right wingers think you have to be poor to support labour ,some people even when they become rich still care about their fellow human beings,others are corrupted by money and power ,the worst are those that were born to working class families,they despise and try to destroy any reminders of their origins.
It's a little difficult to understand what you have written Loony- I think you're trying one of your "ooooooooh I can't write properly, me. 'cos I'm an 'ard dun by workin' man, me." phase.

Come on- I know you can do better than that. Stop pretending to be someone you're not.

Anyway- at where did I suggest "you have to be poor to support Labour" on my comments?

The trouble is you don't bother to read what people write before you make decisions about them.

Doh!
[quote][p][bold]loonyleft[/bold] wrote: Johnny,why do right wingers think you have to be poor to support labour ,some people even when they become rich still care about their fellow human beings,others are corrupted by money and power ,the worst are those that were born to working class families,they despise and try to destroy any reminders of their origins.[/p][/quote]It's a little difficult to understand what you have written Loony- I think you're trying one of your "ooooooooh I can't write properly, me. 'cos I'm an 'ard dun by workin' man, me." phase. Come on- I know you can do better than that. Stop pretending to be someone you're not. Anyway- at where did I suggest "you have to be poor to support Labour" on my comments? The trouble is you don't bother to read what people write before you make decisions about them. Doh! johnny_p

1:44pm Sun 23 Dec 12

loan_star says...

loonyleft wrote:
loan star,if the tories were only voting on the facts presented to them,how come labour mp's weren't fooled by these same "facts,so realy it's really the tory party who are the war mongers and the leadership at the time who are war criminals.Sorry old chap ,how does it feel voting for war criminals,the right are always more prone to commiting the country to war, because working class people just want to get on with their lives and they know they are first in line in every war.
I honestly cant believe that anybody is so dumb to actually have nerve to write such crap that you have there.
[quote][p][bold]loonyleft[/bold] wrote: loan star,if the tories were only voting on the facts presented to them,how come labour mp's weren't fooled by these same "facts,so realy it's really the tory party who are the war mongers and the leadership at the time who are war criminals.Sorry old chap ,how does it feel voting for war criminals,the right are always more prone to commiting the country to war, because working class people just want to get on with their lives and they know they are first in line in every war.[/p][/quote]I honestly cant believe that anybody is so dumb to actually have nerve to write such crap that you have there. loan_star

2:42pm Sun 23 Dec 12

David Lacey says...

Mental innit?
Mental innit? David Lacey

2:45pm Sun 23 Dec 12

johnny_p says...

David Lacey wrote:
Thank you chaps. Your words are very welcome. In the North East we fight a continual battle against the evil forces of socialism. And despite being heavily outnumbered, I truly believe that one day the penny will drop and people will engage their brains before placing that cross in the box marked Labour.
.
It may not happen in 2015, but if we get 5 more years of Moribund and his bunch of deadbeats, even the most diehard left winger will have to admit that Labour is the most corrosive, evil force ever to be inflicted upon the poor, old, weak and vulnerable members of society.
you think what it is right cleva to write what you about evils,then you need to look at yerself in mirror and see what tories and posh people what have done to this countrie,I mean them bankers what stole money from working man while posh torys were drinking schampagne and mudering children in Iraq and Iran while good Labour mp's were trying to stop redcar steel from closing

then while nasty tory party were letting the bankers steel even more money the labours party was trying to be careful with money not like them eveil tories what were stealing expenis to do there big posh house up with while drinking champayne

how dare you critise labour when the tories who are the nasty party led us to illegal wars what they all supported, and got unemployment right high while not caring about common man who is not workshy and sitting on bed all day watching Jeremy Kyle like I am?

you are a nasty eveil tory davis lacy what supports the tories or upik so like hitler who was good after all.

I hope thaht makes evrythinnk clear for the nasty party
[quote][p][bold]David Lacey[/bold] wrote: Thank you chaps. Your words are very welcome. In the North East we fight a continual battle against the evil forces of socialism. And despite being heavily outnumbered, I truly believe that one day the penny will drop and people will engage their brains before placing that cross in the box marked Labour. . It may not happen in 2015, but if we get 5 more years of Moribund and his bunch of deadbeats, even the most diehard left winger will have to admit that Labour is the most corrosive, evil force ever to be inflicted upon the poor, old, weak and vulnerable members of society.[/p][/quote]you think what it is right cleva to write what you about evils,then you need to look at yerself in mirror and see what tories and posh people what have done to this countrie,I mean them bankers what stole money from working man while posh torys were drinking schampagne and mudering children in Iraq and Iran while good Labour mp's were trying to stop redcar steel from closing then while nasty tory party were letting the bankers steel even more money the labours party was trying to be careful with money not like them eveil tories what were stealing expenis to do there big posh house up with while drinking champayne how dare you critise labour when the tories who are the nasty party led us to illegal wars what they all supported, and got unemployment right high while not caring about common man who is not workshy and sitting on bed all day watching Jeremy Kyle like I am? you are a nasty eveil tory davis lacy what supports the tories or upik so like hitler who was good after all. I hope thaht makes evrythinnk clear for the nasty party johnny_p

4:14pm Sun 23 Dec 12

David Lacey says...

Prefecly. Iv acchully had a smal leckage deu to to mutch lafta. Happers wen you ripern wiv aeg.
Prefecly. Iv acchully had a smal leckage deu to to mutch lafta. Happers wen you ripern wiv aeg. David Lacey

5:14pm Sun 23 Dec 12

fracker says...

loan star,I'm sorry you don't like the truth,the majority of labour mp's warned against the war,tory mp's tipped the balance,hope you can live with supporting your war mongering party.I feel really sorry you and the other two stooges,Dave ,and little Jonny if are dumb enough to support a party that doesn't even notice you exist,never mind care about you. Evil corrosive party-what does that make tories, driving disabled people to there deaths, taking benefits of disabled soldiers e.t.c. on he other hand reading your infantile attempts at comedy above ,i think you are in the right part of the spectrum of politics, away from the people who really care about their fellow man not just the cash they can grab for themselves.
loan star,I'm sorry you don't like the truth,the majority of labour mp's warned against the war,tory mp's tipped the balance,hope you can live with supporting your war mongering party.I feel really sorry you and the other two stooges,Dave ,and little Jonny if are dumb enough to support a party that doesn't even notice you exist,never mind care about you. Evil corrosive party-what does that make tories, driving disabled people to there deaths, taking benefits of disabled soldiers e.t.c. on he other hand reading your infantile attempts at comedy above ,i think you are in the right part of the spectrum of politics, away from the people who really care about their fellow man not just the cash they can grab for themselves. fracker

6:15pm Sun 23 Dec 12

loan_star says...

No fracker, the truth is the Labour Government mislead the country about WMD, therefore swinging the vote in favour of supporting whatever action they decided was necessary.
The same government drove a man to suicide by criticising his WMD evidence.
You can blame plenty of things on the Tories and coalition but you most certainly cant pin the blame for the illegal war on them.
Typical labour supporter, cant see his own parties failings for looking for faults with others.
No fracker, the truth is the Labour Government mislead the country about WMD, therefore swinging the vote in favour of supporting whatever action they decided was necessary. The same government drove a man to suicide by criticising his WMD evidence. You can blame plenty of things on the Tories and coalition but you most certainly cant pin the blame for the illegal war on them. Typical labour supporter, cant see his own parties failings for looking for faults with others. loan_star

7:00pm Sun 23 Dec 12

johnny_p says...

loan_star wrote:
No fracker, the truth is the Labour Government mislead the country about WMD, therefore swinging the vote in favour of supporting whatever action they decided was necessary.
The same government drove a man to suicide by criticising his WMD evidence.
You can blame plenty of things on the Tories and coalition but you most certainly cant pin the blame for the illegal war on them.
Typical labour supporter, cant see his own parties failings for looking for faults with others.
I sometimes wonder if it's worth bothering with them Fracker- you couldn't make it up. Or maybe you can judging by what they write.....
[quote][p][bold]loan_star[/bold] wrote: No fracker, the truth is the Labour Government mislead the country about WMD, therefore swinging the vote in favour of supporting whatever action they decided was necessary. The same government drove a man to suicide by criticising his WMD evidence. You can blame plenty of things on the Tories and coalition but you most certainly cant pin the blame for the illegal war on them. Typical labour supporter, cant see his own parties failings for looking for faults with others.[/p][/quote]I sometimes wonder if it's worth bothering with them Fracker- you couldn't make it up. Or maybe you can judging by what they write..... johnny_p

7:01pm Sun 23 Dec 12

johnny_p says...

johnny_p wrote:
loan_star wrote:
No fracker, the truth is the Labour Government mislead the country about WMD, therefore swinging the vote in favour of supporting whatever action they decided was necessary.
The same government drove a man to suicide by criticising his WMD evidence.
You can blame plenty of things on the Tories and coalition but you most certainly cant pin the blame for the illegal war on them.
Typical labour supporter, cant see his own parties failings for looking for faults with others.
I sometimes wonder if it's worth bothering with them Fracker- you couldn't make it up. Or maybe you can judging by what they write.....
I mean Lone Star- they're distorting my mind now with regard to what's real!
[quote][p][bold]johnny_p[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]loan_star[/bold] wrote: No fracker, the truth is the Labour Government mislead the country about WMD, therefore swinging the vote in favour of supporting whatever action they decided was necessary. The same government drove a man to suicide by criticising his WMD evidence. You can blame plenty of things on the Tories and coalition but you most certainly cant pin the blame for the illegal war on them. Typical labour supporter, cant see his own parties failings for looking for faults with others.[/p][/quote]I sometimes wonder if it's worth bothering with them Fracker- you couldn't make it up. Or maybe you can judging by what they write.....[/p][/quote]I mean Lone Star- they're distorting my mind now with regard to what's real! johnny_p

8:18pm Sun 23 Dec 12

loonyleft says...

So the tory party being so inexperienced allowed themselves to be conned by Tony Blair,but the majority of labour mp's weren't,don't you find that strange.The evidence was presented to all parties,exactly the same for all mp's,the tories were fooled ,but not labour did Tony with his svengali like powers distort only what the tory party read to make them vote for him? next you'll be telling me you believe in father christmas !!!
So the tory party being so inexperienced allowed themselves to be conned by Tony Blair,but the majority of labour mp's weren't,don't you find that strange.The evidence was presented to all parties,exactly the same for all mp's,the tories were fooled ,but not labour did Tony with his svengali like powers distort only what the tory party read to make them vote for him? next you'll be telling me you believe in father christmas !!! loonyleft

8:18pm Sun 23 Dec 12

loonyleft says...

So the tory party being so inexperienced allowed themselves to be conned by Tony Blair,but the majority of labour mp's weren't,don't you find that strange.The evidence was presented to all parties,exactly the same for all mp's,the tories were fooled ,but not labour did Tony with his svengali like powers distort only what the tory party read to make them vote for him? next you'll be telling me you believe in father christmas !!!
So the tory party being so inexperienced allowed themselves to be conned by Tony Blair,but the majority of labour mp's weren't,don't you find that strange.The evidence was presented to all parties,exactly the same for all mp's,the tories were fooled ,but not labour did Tony with his svengali like powers distort only what the tory party read to make them vote for him? next you'll be telling me you believe in father christmas !!! loonyleft

9:19pm Sun 23 Dec 12

loan_star says...

Keep taking the loony pills, the rest of us wont defend your war criminal ex leaders.
Keep taking the loony pills, the rest of us wont defend your war criminal ex leaders. loan_star

4:47pm Mon 24 Dec 12

Lifetime Townie says...

Grow up and stop the personal remarks, it's really boring to the rest of us. Stick to the intellectual thread!
Grow up and stop the personal remarks, it's really boring to the rest of us. Stick to the intellectual thread! Lifetime Townie

4:48pm Mon 24 Dec 12

loonyleft says...

But t will you keep defending the real war criminals in the tory party,the labour mp's wouldn't vote for the war because they knew it would be ordinary working class folk who would b sacrificed like in every war.And since Blair left front line politics,it has become more obvious he would be more at home in the tory party, so if you want to keep calling a fellow tory a war criminal be my guest.
But t will you keep defending the real war criminals in the tory party,the labour mp's wouldn't vote for the war because they knew it would be ordinary working class folk who would b sacrificed like in every war.And since Blair left front line politics,it has become more obvious he would be more at home in the tory party, so if you want to keep calling a fellow tory a war criminal be my guest. loonyleft

5:30pm Mon 24 Dec 12

David Lacey says...

Nistory being turned on its head. Again.
Nistory being turned on its head. Again. David Lacey

5:31pm Mon 24 Dec 12

David Lacey says...

Nistory is a bit like history. Only a tad nastier.
Nistory is a bit like history. Only a tad nastier. David Lacey

6:16pm Mon 24 Dec 12

loonyleft says...

The tories voted for war, the labour mps were not fooled get used to the fact,right wingers have traditionally always been gun happy,left wingers mindful of who will suffer the most are always reluctant to vote for war.
The tories voted for war, the labour mps were not fooled get used to the fact,right wingers have traditionally always been gun happy,left wingers mindful of who will suffer the most are always reluctant to vote for war. loonyleft

8:00pm Mon 24 Dec 12

David Lacey says...

Mad. Completely.
Mad. Completely. David Lacey

9:58pm Tue 25 Dec 12

fracker says...

Yes David but what can you do,Cameron is stationing troops soon ready to go into syria in the new year,still it will make money for the country in arms sales even if more troops get killed ,thats the tory way.
Yes David but what can you do,Cameron is stationing troops soon ready to go into syria in the new year,still it will make money for the country in arms sales even if more troops get killed ,thats the tory way. fracker

9:58pm Tue 25 Dec 12

fracker says...

Yes David but what can you do,Cameron is stationing troops soon ready to go into syria in the new year,still it will make money for the country in arms sales even if more troops get killed ,thats the tory way.
Yes David but what can you do,Cameron is stationing troops soon ready to go into syria in the new year,still it will make money for the country in arms sales even if more troops get killed ,thats the tory way. fracker

9:51am Wed 26 Dec 12

David Lacey says...

Nuts. There is no way the UK will get involved in Syria.
.
Illegal wars are the province of Labour. Is your memory THAT short?
Nuts. There is no way the UK will get involved in Syria. . Illegal wars are the province of Labour. Is your memory THAT short? David Lacey

11:35am Wed 26 Dec 12

jdgibson says...

David Lacey wrote:
Nuts. There is no way the UK will get involved in Syria.
.
Illegal wars are the province of Labour. Is your memory THAT short?
In the current conflict in Syria over 40,000 people have been killed and 500 children have been arrested and tortured yet we are unable to do anything about it. The reason we cannot do anything about it is that Russia and China will veto any UN security council resolution to intervene.
.
The reason the Russians and Chinese will veto a UN security resolution over Syria is Libya. Britain and France sought and obtained a UN security council resolution to allow them to intervene in Libya to prevent civilian casualties. However Britain and France then used this resolution as a pretext to take sides in the Libyan civil war and illegally overthrow the Libyan government. Russia does not want the same thing to happen to their Syrian ally.
.
The idea that a war is legal as it is sanctioned by the UN security council implies that the UN security council is an impartial quasi judicial body acting on evidence. In reality it is just another means for major powers to exercise foreign policy and act in their interests. UN security council resolutions are ignored by Israel as their friend on the council, the USA, will not allow any action to enforce them.
.
Unfortunately for Libya, their friend on the council, Britain, stabbed them in the back. Gaddafi was a wicked and evil man but their are many such governments in North Africa and the Middle East that Britain is happy to be friends with, Saudi Arabia being one, if it is thought to be in our interests. The worst case interpretation of Cameron and the French governments decisions over Libya is they always intended to overthrow Gaddafi and lied to the UN to get a resolution knowing if they had told the truth and asked for a resolution to overthrow Gaddafi it would not have been passed. Both Cameron and Sarkozy saw domestic political advantage in the Libyan conflict.
.
Perhaps in lying to the UN Cameron had learned from Blair's failure to get a second resolution over Iraq.
.
The words used in UN resolution 678 that Blair said made the second gulf war legal were "to use all necessary means". The words used in UN resolution 1973 that Cameron said made Britain's involvement in the war in Libya legal were "all means necessary". The same words in a different order yet the critics of Blair would tell us Blair is a war criminal and Cameron is not.
.
In reality the issue of Iraq, Libya and Syria is not legality in the domestic sense but politics, international politics and domestic politics. Calling the Iraq war illegal is a convenient stick with which to beat Labour, but Blair was no better and no worse than any other British Prime Minister who sent our troops to war.
.
Most of the ideas about illegal wars and war crime were invented by the USA at the end of the Second World War as a pretext to convict and execute the Nazi leadership. The fact that a war is legal does not make the dead any less dead or the injured any less injured.
.
The basis of much of the British unwritten constitution, the position of Queen and all property ownership in the UK is William the Conqueror's "by right of conquest", by modern standards an illegal war.
[quote][p][bold]David Lacey[/bold] wrote: Nuts. There is no way the UK will get involved in Syria. . Illegal wars are the province of Labour. Is your memory THAT short?[/p][/quote]In the current conflict in Syria over 40,000 people have been killed and 500 children have been arrested and tortured yet we are unable to do anything about it. The reason we cannot do anything about it is that Russia and China will veto any UN security council resolution to intervene. . The reason the Russians and Chinese will veto a UN security resolution over Syria is Libya. Britain and France sought and obtained a UN security council resolution to allow them to intervene in Libya to prevent civilian casualties. However Britain and France then used this resolution as a pretext to take sides in the Libyan civil war and illegally overthrow the Libyan government. Russia does not want the same thing to happen to their Syrian ally. . The idea that a war is legal as it is sanctioned by the UN security council implies that the UN security council is an impartial quasi judicial body acting on evidence. In reality it is just another means for major powers to exercise foreign policy and act in their interests. UN security council resolutions are ignored by Israel as their friend on the council, the USA, will not allow any action to enforce them. . Unfortunately for Libya, their friend on the council, Britain, stabbed them in the back. Gaddafi was a wicked and evil man but their are many such governments in North Africa and the Middle East that Britain is happy to be friends with, Saudi Arabia being one, if it is thought to be in our interests. The worst case interpretation of Cameron and the French governments decisions over Libya is they always intended to overthrow Gaddafi and lied to the UN to get a resolution knowing if they had told the truth and asked for a resolution to overthrow Gaddafi it would not have been passed. Both Cameron and Sarkozy saw domestic political advantage in the Libyan conflict. . Perhaps in lying to the UN Cameron had learned from Blair's failure to get a second resolution over Iraq. . The words used in UN resolution 678 that Blair said made the second gulf war legal were "to use all necessary means". The words used in UN resolution 1973 that Cameron said made Britain's involvement in the war in Libya legal were "all means necessary". The same words in a different order yet the critics of Blair would tell us Blair is a war criminal and Cameron is not. . In reality the issue of Iraq, Libya and Syria is not legality in the domestic sense but politics, international politics and domestic politics. Calling the Iraq war illegal is a convenient stick with which to beat Labour, but Blair was no better and no worse than any other British Prime Minister who sent our troops to war. . Most of the ideas about illegal wars and war crime were invented by the USA at the end of the Second World War as a pretext to convict and execute the Nazi leadership. The fact that a war is legal does not make the dead any less dead or the injured any less injured. . The basis of much of the British unwritten constitution, the position of Queen and all property ownership in the UK is William the Conqueror's "by right of conquest", by modern standards an illegal war. jdgibson

11:50am Wed 26 Dec 12

David Lacey says...

Nuts. There is no way the UK will get involved in Syria.
.
Illegal wars are the province of Labour. Is your memory THAT short?
Nuts. There is no way the UK will get involved in Syria. . Illegal wars are the province of Labour. Is your memory THAT short? David Lacey

12:00pm Wed 26 Dec 12

jdgibson says...

David Lacey wrote:
Nuts. There is no way the UK will get involved in Syria.
.
Illegal wars are the province of Labour. Is your memory THAT short?
Reading all of my last post was obviously to difficult for you.
.
Here is one paragraph to make is easier.
.
The words used in UN resolution 678 that Blair said made the second gulf war legal were "to use all necessary means". The words used in UN resolution 1973 that Cameron said made Britain's involvement in the war in Libya legal were "all means necessary". The same words in a different order yet the critics of Blair would tell us Blair is a war criminal and Cameron is not.
[quote][p][bold]David Lacey[/bold] wrote: Nuts. There is no way the UK will get involved in Syria. . Illegal wars are the province of Labour. Is your memory THAT short?[/p][/quote]Reading all of my last post was obviously to difficult for you. . Here is one paragraph to make is easier. . The words used in UN resolution 678 that Blair said made the second gulf war legal were "to use all necessary means". The words used in UN resolution 1973 that Cameron said made Britain's involvement in the war in Libya legal were "all means necessary". The same words in a different order yet the critics of Blair would tell us Blair is a war criminal and Cameron is not. jdgibson

4:14pm Wed 26 Dec 12

David Lacey says...

Nuts. There is no way the UK will get involved in Syria.
.
Illegal wars are the province of Labour. Is your memory THAT short?
Nuts. There is no way the UK will get involved in Syria. . Illegal wars are the province of Labour. Is your memory THAT short? David Lacey

5:28pm Wed 26 Dec 12

jdgibson says...

David Lacey wrote:
Nuts. There is no way the UK will get involved in Syria.
.
Illegal wars are the province of Labour. Is your memory THAT short?
If this is your idea of fun perhaps you should just go and visit a pantomime.

Cinderalla is on at Stockton, Aladdin at Darlington, and Dick Wittington at Durham.

Oh yes he did, oh no he didn't, in case you're missing the point.
[quote][p][bold]David Lacey[/bold] wrote: Nuts. There is no way the UK will get involved in Syria. . Illegal wars are the province of Labour. Is your memory THAT short?[/p][/quote]If this is your idea of fun perhaps you should just go and visit a pantomime. Cinderalla is on at Stockton, Aladdin at Darlington, and Dick Wittington at Durham. Oh yes he did, oh no he didn't, in case you're missing the point. jdgibson

5:48pm Wed 26 Dec 12

David Lacey says...

Nuts. There is no way the UK will get involved in Syria.
.
Illegal wars are the province of Labour. Is your memory THAT short?
Nuts. There is no way the UK will get involved in Syria. . Illegal wars are the province of Labour. Is your memory THAT short? David Lacey

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